Girls: do you want to be treated like, and regarded as being the same as, a man?

my argument was that both genders have different qualities, i did not suggest how these differences came about.

most psychologists would agree that gender development arises out of a mixture of nature and nurture. nature being natural selection, including labour division and E-S theory, also encorperating the bio-social models such as social role theory, and genes determining hormone release both pre-natally and in adolescense. nurture being the social, environmental and psychological factors in the senstive period (up to 3 yrs) and further social, cultral and psychological (and even biological?) factors encorperating cognitive developmetal models such as schema and constancy theory.

although my argument was only saying that there were differences, so this is a bit irrelevent

Have you actually read the rest of the thread? Very few girls here have said they think it's wrong for them to be punched because they are a girl, the majority have said that it's wrong for a girl to be punched only if the person punching them is stronger than them. It would be the same if it was a really strong girl punching a skinny guy, for example.

I find the worst masculine stereotypes just as bad as the feminine ones, to be honest - laddish, cocky, completely clueless about anything to do with running a house, expecting the woman to do all the housework even if she works exactly the same hours as him, obsessed with sex & unable to keep their eyes or hands to themselves, interested in beer, cars, sex & football and nothing else, completely tactless & unable to understand why people might be upset with them.... That's the STEREOTYPE, obviously I don't think most guys are like that at all, just like I don't believe that most girls are the epitome of the worst 'female' stereotypes. I actually find it very sad that you seem to believe that most girls do fit the worst stereotypes.

Depends on the situation.

Career and job prospect wise, yes.
In a relationship (and other friendships), noo waayy.

not sure - i think that opportunities/education etc. women should definitely be treated the same. i also think that intelligence-wise they should be treated as the same.

however, there are differences. i am friends with a lot of blokes, and though i dont mind a bit of teasing, i couldnt cope with the onslaught of basically bullying guys give each other :P also i think there are some jobs that just straight out suit men better, e.g. the majority of completely physical jobs.

tbh, i think we've got it almost right now

No. Men and women may be equal in value, but they are in no way the same, and it should stay that way.

Hmmm, no. Not exactly the same. I mean, I don't want to be treated any less than men, but I don't exactly want to be treated.. like a man?

It think that could be true. I think I'm pretty tough and can stand up for myself but at the same time perhaps slightly hypocritically when I am with my boyfriend or even just male friends I would feel safer with them there e.g. on a night out when all the guys get a bit out of control, it is nice to know someone is there to look after you.

I'm a GIRL, why would i want to be treated like a boy?!

No. Men and women are very different.

errr do i look like a dyke doe?

Of course not. I'm not a man, so why should I be treated like one? I'd hate to be treated like a man!

No. I like to feel protected by men, and in return I like to feel like I can be more affectionate etc towards him, in a way that man to man would very much equal gay.


I also don't want to be expected to wee standing up.

I want to be regarded the same in most respects. However, I'm a fan of chivalry to a degree.

There is a male and there is a female hence there is a difference; otherwise we would have been all of the same gender
I believe that women should be treated the same way as men are in certain situations but in other situations no.
Men not only have the physical strength but the mental strength too. Women are usually affected by emotions and feelings which in some cases are not useful nor helpful at all, which is why I believe that there are certain jobs that do not suit women at all, one of which is leadership.
If we think about the olden days where womens concentrated on bringing up good children and the men had the role of bringing money to feed them etc; the society was so much more stabalised, and each gender had its own value; today however many women are fighting for equality, not knowing that the equality they are wanting will take away the precious value that women always had.
Saying that however, women should, not be equal to, but have the same rights as men in certain cases, this includes education, their right when it comes to justice, money ...etc.

Yes:

Careers and pay
Relationships
Paying your own way
Objectifying

No:
Physical strength

You can't cope with teasing because you're sensitive, not because you are a woman. Yes, there are a far higher number of sensitive women than there are sensitive guys, but it's not like women are fundamentally incapable of taking teasing is it. I'm female and my male friends mock me as much as they mock each other.

And are you saying that a woman should be automatically rejected from a job involving heavy-lifting because she has a vagina? Even if she has giant muscles and weight lifts in her spare time?

If you know a person is sensitive you shouldn't tease them. If you know a person is physically weak you shouldn't hire them to lift stuff. That is a very different statement to 'men and women should be treated differently'

(though, what's exactly wrong with being laddish and cocky, from my understanding I'd prefer more people to have those traits).

Well there's nothing wrong with being a bit sparky, but from my experience I've found that the most laddish and cocky guys are the ones who tend to have sexist views, plus there's an extremely fine line between cockiness and arrogance, and I hate people who think that other people should bow down to their supposed superiority.

The point I was trying to make, is that girls who like being all...well girly, generally have more disdain for guys with girly traits, than macho guys have for girls who are all raucous and macho (though i'm sure macho guys would prefer their bitches(s) making sandwiches and otherwise only opening their mouths for cock).

I always thought that macho guys disliked macho girls as much as girly girls disliked girly guys In fact, I've found that the most macho guys are the ones who love having GFs who are girly, because it inflates their egos so much feeling that their strength & 'manliness' is needed to protect their GFs...

In regards to the reading the rest of the thread - well here are some quotes that led me to infer a lot of girls posting here prefer living up to the feminine stereotype to some degree.

Name one ability or personality trait that is present only in men and never in women, or only in women but never in men.

Go on! You'll win the argument if you can

...

well, firstly i didnt say i couldnt take teasing, i take plenty. i mean i probably couldnt take the barrage of abuse that boys throw at each other, and i think, in general, women would take that far worse than guys.

secondly, im not saying that either, and how many girls do you know like that exactly? the average man is a lot stronger than the average woman, and that is just biology.

Ehm, childbirth???

Secondly, your point is 100% irrelevant. Why? Because it is too expensive/impossible to objectively measure quite a lot of things for employment. Qualifications/education/job interview only tell you very little, thus employers make the decision to generalize. You can argue about generalizations being based on bogus info, but sadly for you, it is beneficial to do so.

Oh for goodness sake. The majority of women are weaker than the majority of men. I know this. We are biologically programmed to have different bodies!

But:

Weak people should be treated like they are weak. Strong people should be treated like they are strong. Sensitive people should be treated like they are sensitive.

That's very different from saying 'men and women should be treated differently'.

Everyone is a unique individual. Treating someone like they are the stereotype of their demographic is so, so wrong.

Oh and it has not been proved society was more stable because men worked and women were in the home

Secondly, what the **** are you on mate? If you're applying for a job, any skills that are essential for the job are going to be measured. Either by looking at your CV, giving you an interview, giving you a trial run, or some kind of test or many of these things. Companies actually do care who they hire.

No company is going to not test for an essential skill!

Therefore no hirer is ever going to be in a situation where it makes sense to generalise.

Jesus Christ you people make it too easy.

Actually, it was. But that definitely does not mean it is now.

"In them days..."

You needed to have an average ~5+ children(due to high mortality rates) for the society to regenerate itself -> 1 parent needs to be home more.
Cleaning home to sustain a decent level of hygiene -> needs a parent at home
Making food at home took a lot longer time - again more time

I am sure some factors add to it even more. Life was very different back then and... yes, society back then was a lot more stable due to the traditional gender roles, but to imply that forcing modern gender roles in a traditional society(or traditional roles into a today's world) is simply a bad idea.

Name one ability or personality trait that is present only in men and never in women, or only in women but never in men.

Go on! You'll win the argument if you can

Oh and by the way, Prospective Medic, if you think men and women should be treated differently because of how they stereotypically are..you think it's ok to be rejected from medicine on the basis that you'll probably faint at the sight of blood, get too attached emotionally to your patients and end up depressed...

You made so many spelling errors in that post, you probably aren't clever enough for medicine, just a heads up.

Edit: and it would be wrong to treat people of different ages as if they were a certain way too. Would you like it if people assumed you were going to be mentally slow for being old? Or noisy and rude for being young?

On the basis that I've backed up everything I've said with reason. If men and women are so obviously different - and deserve to be treated as such - you would have had no problem pointing out these differences and winning the argument. You have yet to do that.

Go back to page 3. First post. It's very short.

Just because I'm insulting you doesn't mean I'm irrational, it would only be irrational if all I was doing was insulting you. As it happens I'm trying to debate with you but it is impossble because you are refusing to back up your assertion.

The whole point is that you can't measure everything, no, do not try to suggest you can, you simply can't. YES COMPANIES CARE WHO THEY HIRE, BUT THEY JUST CAN'T MEASURE EVERYTHING. Yes, it is a good idea to lower the role of generalizations, but you can't overdo it, because it is impractical.

with all due respect...

not once did i say there are more difference between genders than within them. i am not saying they should be treated much differently, but denying that there is a difference between males and females is just ignorent. no way am i being anti-feminist or saying that we should conform to gender stereotypes.

yes you do need to treat different ages differently. not in the extreme ways that you have mentioned, but more subtle ways. are you seriously saying that you would talk to a 7 year old in the same way you would talk to a 50 year old?

and you are judging my intelligence on how much time and care i have taken over a post? sorry but i have better things to be doing than making sure my spelling is 100% correct. what a fantastic argument you have there

Oh for goodness sake. The majority of women are weaker than the majority of men. I know this. We are biologically programmed to have different bodies!

But:

Weak people should be treated like they are weak. Strong people should be treated like they are strong. Sensitive people should be treated like they are sensitive.

That's very different from saying 'men and women should be treated differently'.

Everyone is a unique individual. Treating someone like they are the stereotype of their demographic is so, so wrong.