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Girls: do you want to be treated like, and regarded as being the same as, a man? watch

  • View Poll Results: Girls - do you want women to be treated identically to men?
    Yes! Aside from that annoying business of reproduction, there should be no difference seen between men and women.
    50
    22.03%
    I'm not sure. I may clarify by posting in the thread!
    15
    6.61%
    No, wtf? Men and women are quite different and I wouldn't want women to be treated exactly the same as men.
    98
    43.17%
    z0mgpoll
    64
    28.19%

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    (Original post by blinkbelle)
    Ok, let me give you an example of how formal equality can be bad for women.

    The law on self defence applies to everyone equally. It entitles you to a defence if you defend yourself proportionately to imminent danger. However, this state of affairs has been shown to benefit men more than women. This is because men and women are fundamentally different - for example men are more likely to be able to plead self defence because as a defence it fits the paradigm of male violence. Men are most likely to encounter violence outside the home, and retaliate immediately with violence.

    Women, however, are much more likely to encounter violence within the home in the form of low level domestic abuse, and do not respond with violence because they fear the repurcussions of such conduct.

    Women instead suffer from the 'slow burn' effect - their feelings build up and then they eventually unleash this violence on their partner at a time when they will not suffer consequences - usually when their partner is incapacitated or asleep. This is not usually immediately after they have been subjected to violence. Therefore they do not fall within the requirements for pleading self defence.

    In this way, the law relating to self defence applies equally to all, however disadvantages women because it does not take into account the psychological differences between men and woman and their responses to violence, or the reality of where women experience violence.

    This is why I believe that equality of opportunity is a good thing, but treating men and women in exactly the same way is foolish and naive.
    No, the issue you described is not to do with fundamental differences, it's to do with general differences.

    And you say men and women should be treated differently because of this general difference in the violence they receive, but what would you do? Would you pass a law saying that women can attack their husband/boyfriend without being provoked and claim 'self-defence'. That's insane. There are some crazy evil women out there who would murder their partners and then claim many years of abuse, and your differential treatment would mean they are more likely to get away with it. Not only that, but men experience domestic violence too. If you treat men and women differently, then you'll get a situation where the man will kill after many years of abuse, and no one will take him seriously.

    Treating people differently because of their gender is bad for everyone.

    It's very sad that domestic violence is such a difficult issue, but treating men and women differently because of the general differences in violence they receive is so, so wrong. Can't imagine many guys would be happy with it.
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    (Original post by aeonflux)
    It is human nature to stereotype. You, me, and everyone else, are constantly making generalisations and assumptions everyday, all the time. Whenever you go to cross a road at a pedestrian crossing, you make the assumption that the driver waiting at the red light will not ignore it and accelerate towards you. You do not know that this driver isn't a psychopath and isn't going to run you over. You make this assumption based on the fact that the vast majority of drivers aren't. If you weren't willing to make this assumption and assume the driver is a stereotypical driver who doesn't cut red lights, you would never be able to cross the road. People can't function without assumptions and stereotypes.

    Likewise, the vast majority of men are stronger than the vast majority of women, therefore it is not unfair to make that assumption. It is all well and good to say that we should treat everyone as an individual, but the fact is that humans by their very nature make assumptions based on stereotypes, and employers are no exception to this.

    The fact is that at certain times we have to treat people like stereotypes of their demographic - we don't always have the time and knowledge to assess a persons every skill and ability on an individual basis.
    Bold - you're completely right. If I was walking home alone on a dark night, and I saw a middle aged man standing in the shadows at the side of the road, I'd be a lot more scared than if it was a young woman. That's because I know that men are more likely to try to murder me than women are.

    However, that's an extreme situation. The guy doesn't suffer for me being 'more scared' of him. What does he care? Will he even notice I'm more scared of him?

    Now lets say I'm a French teacher. I know girls are generally better at learning languages than guys. So when I teach my class, I almost always call on the girls to read the French passages.

    That would be wrong.

    Do you see the difference?

    What I'm trying to say is, there's nothing wrong with being aware of which gender is more likely to have a certain ability/trait, but it is totally wrong to treat people like they have a certain ability or trait.

    And you are totally wrong about that last bit. If a skill is essential for the job the company isn't going to pick a person at random, they are going to assess whether they have this skill. If time is short they might choose to only assess the most important skill, rather than the two or three most important skills, they are never going to pick someone at random.
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    (Original post by Teaddict)
    This thread has highlighted a couple of issues.

    Women wanted to be treated like men in terms of jobs, opportunity and prospects, however, they do not want to be treated like men when it comes to other areas.

    Frankly, you cannot have both. You either are treated as women, or treated as men.
    Make your mind up.
    Or treated as a individual person, unfortunately the poll doesn't give that option :no:

    (Original post by O-Ren)
    Bold - you're completely right. If I was walking home alone on a dark night, and I saw a middle aged man standing in the shadows at the side of the road, I'd be a lot more scared than if it was a young woman. That's because I know that men are more likely to try to murder me than women are.

    However, that's an extreme situation. The guy doesn't suffer for me being 'more scared' of him. What does he care? Will he even notice I'm more scared of him?
    Sometimes, kinda - sometimes you just wanna say, 'it's ok, i'm not a murdering rapist - I just happen to walking the same way as you this time at night' (I used to walk to/from work in the evening/'ams'). However, I imagine that would just make the situation a bit more awkward. It's ok though, I forgive you, i'd be wary too :p:
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    This has truly disappointing poll results. It's almost as if many of the girls posting in this thread are arguing for their own subjugation. Do you not think that wanting to be thought of as being different will not serve to fuel the very issues that many of you so passionately contest. When I read threads which are full of girls arguing passionately against the use of overtly sexualised imagery and then unknowingly propagating such disparity between the sexes, it really is quite frustrating. Those of you who have indicated that there are deep-rooted difference between the genders, tell me, what exactly are they? In my humble opinion, it is only a matter of physical strength, and what role does this have to play in today's world? Clearly, men no longer have to hunt for sustenance and women no longer have to solely act of a carer of their husband/children home. In truth, whatever differences may exist, they are negligible and have little or no consequential impact.
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    (Original post by Its_anya)
    Well done on your ability to create hypothetical stories.

    You evidentally didn't actually read the argument you are trying to counter. Men and women do the SAME physical training and tests for these jobs. THEREFORE, there is a minimum amount of strength required to do the job, and any more is simply a bonus, so you cannot be in any way assured that a male firefighter will be strong enough to lift you any more than you could with a female one, if you're heavier than the weights they are trained to lift.

    I think the moron here is you.

    You evidentally didn't actually read the argument you are trying to counter, how about the police then?

    I think the moron here is you.


    Why women shouldn't be Astronaut's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vXdR...layer_embedded
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    (Original post by O-Ren)
    'snip'
    (Original post by Kreuzuerk)
    'snip'
    The reason I have problems with the concept of formal equality in the UK is because a woman being treated as if she were a man is not right - because she is not a man. Regardless of this, the structures we have in society today are male structures, therefore a woman will only ever (if that's even possible) become equal to a man, rather than respectable and valued in her own right.
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    Equal but not the same
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    (Original post by blinkbelle)
    The reason I have problems with the concept of formal equality in the UK is because a woman being treated as if she were a man is not right - because she is not a man. Regardless of this, the structures we have in society today are male structures, therefore a woman will only ever (if that's even possible) become equal to a man, rather than respectable and valued in her own right.
    Firstly, this is slightly unrelated to what I've said so I would appreciate a response to my previous post, as opposed to simply trying to tag a response to it on to someone else's comment.

    In addition, if you wish to pursue your above argument, it's imperative to its credibility that you elaborate on your concept of 'male structures' being present in British society today. Whatever you suggest they are, I would seriously contend the opinion that they are so extensively controlling of women that, within the parameters of today's society, they prevent the realisation of equality.
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    (Original post by blinkbelle)
    The reason I have problems with the concept of formal equality in the UK is because a woman being treated as if she were a man is not right - because she is not a man. Regardless of this, the structures we have in society today are male structures, therefore a woman will only ever (if that's even possible) become equal to a man, rather than respectable and valued in her own right.
    Are you aware of what you've just done?

    Instead of responding to my argument, you repeated the very first thing you said in the thread.

    You have two choices:

    1. Admit I'm right
    2. Try to refute the last thing I said

    Otherwise it's going to be cyclical. I'm going to have to ask you again to explain the fundamental differences between men and women and your brains going to hurt.
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    (Original post by tinktinktinkerbell)
    what a crock of ****, i never have and never will need a man to protect and take care of me, i can do that myself
    So if a man was to batter you in a street, you would have no issue if males in the surrounding area did nothing to help. With no difference in treatment based on gender, it would be considered a simple one on one, no?
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    (Original post by punkyrocker)
    No. Men and women are very different.
    Care to expand?

    Do you think women should automatically treated like they are bad at maths? Should men be treated like they are bad at learning languages? Should women be treated like they are sensitive and fragile? Should men be treated like they are incapable of recognising a person's emotional state?

    Or do you think perhaps, each individual person should treated like they are what they are. Not the stereotype of the demographic they happen to fall into?
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    (Original post by O-Ren)
    What do you mean by this?
    I mean I don't want to be treated like a man. I don't want to play rugby and be expected to want to run cross country and sit around and play xbox. I know that's extremely sexist. I want to be an equal to men, but I don't want to be seen as a man or have the same stereotypical qualities of a man.
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    (Original post by Deadly Lightshade)
    Why would I want to be treated like a man? I'm not a man. Gay people don't want to be treated like they're straight; black people don't want to be treated like they're white.

    I believe all humans should have certain basic rights and opportunities... and sometimes the rights of men are also a bit lacking.
    I think you're a bit confused. This isn't about calling women men, it's about treating someone differently because they're female. I can promise you gay people and black people don't want to be treated any differently for being gay* or black. They want to be treated like themselves, not assumed to conform to their respective stereotypes.

    *Aside from the obvious fact that gay people don't want to be sent on blind dates with the opposite gender.
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    (Original post by LizzieLizzie.)
    I mean I don't want to be treated like a man. I don't want to play rugby and be expected to want to run cross country and sit around and play xbox. I know that's extremely sexist. I want to be an equal to men, but I don't want to be seen as a man or have the same stereotypical qualities of a man.
    Ah I see. I doubt men want to be treated like the stereotypical man either. People are all unique and should be treated as such. I think I quoted you because I thought you were saying you wanted to be treated like a stereotypical woman. It was a long time ago so I can't remember what you originally wrote :o:
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    (Original post by JME10)
    So if a man was to batter you in a street, you would have no issue if males in the surrounding area did nothing to help. With no difference in treatment based on gender, it would be considered a simple one on one, no?
    Those men should obviously step in, not because she has a vagina, but because she is a person being battered in the street.
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    (Original post by O-Ren)
    I'm going to have to ask you again to explain the fundamental differences between men and women and your brains going to hurt.
    I already identified one of the differences between men and women but you simply ignored it. Men have a different reaction to violence than women, who take longer to react and be provoked.

    Spoiler:
    Show
    Neurology:

    1. Human relationships. Women tend to communicate more effectively than men, focusing on how to create a solution that works for the group, talking through issues, and utilizes non-verbal cues such as tone, emotion, and empathy whereas men tend to be more task-oriented, less talkative, and more isolated. Men have a more difficult time understanding emotions that are not explicitly verbalized, while women tend to intuit emotions and emotional cues. These differences explain why men and women sometimes have difficulty communicating and why men-to-men friendships look different from friendships among women.

    2. Left brain vs. both hemispheres. Men tend to process better in the left hemisphere of the brain while women tend to process equally well between the two hemispheres. This difference explains why men are generally stronger with left-brain activities and approach problem-solving from a task-oriented perspective while women typically solve problems more creatively and are more aware of feelings while communicating.

    3. Mathematical abilities. An area of the brain called the inferior-parietal lobule (IPL) is typically significantly larger in men, especially on the left side, than in women. This section of the brain is thought to control mental mathematical ability, and probably explains why men frequently perform higher in mathematical tasks than do women. Interestingly, this is the same area of Einstein’s brain that was discovered to be abnormally large. The IPL also processes sensory information, and the larger right side in women allows them to focus on, "specific stimuli, such as a baby crying in the night."

    4. Reaction to stress. Men tend to have a "fight or flight" response to stress situations while women seem to approach these situations with a "tend and befriend" strategy. Psychologist Shelley E. Taylor coined the phrase "tend and befriend" after recognizing that during times of stress women take care of themselves and their children (tending) and form strong group bonds (befriending). The reason for these different reactions to stress is rooted in hormones. The hormone oxytocin is released during stress in everyone. However, estrogen tends to enhance oxytocin resulting in calming and nurturing feelings whereas testosterone, which men produce in high levels during stress, reduces the effects of oxytocin.

    5. Language. Two sections of the brain responsible for language were found to be larger in women than in men, indicating one reason that women typically excel in language-based subjects and in language-associated thinking. Additionally, men typically only process language in their dominant hemisphere, whereas women process language in both hemispheres. This difference offers a bit of protection in case of a stroke. Women may be able to recover more fully from a stroke affecting the language areas in the brain while men may not have this same advantage.

    6. Emotions. Women typically have a larger deep limbic system than men, which allows them to be more in touch with their feelings and better able to express them, which promotes bonding with others. Because of this ability to connect, more women serve as caregivers for children. The down side to this larger deep limbic system is that it also opens women up to depression, especially during times of hormonal shifts such as after childbirth or during a woman’s menstrual cycle.

    7. Brain size. Typically, men’s brains are 11-12% bigger than women’s brains. This size difference has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence, but is explained by the difference in physical size between men and women. Men need more neurons to control their greater muscle mass and larger body size, thus generally have a larger brain.

    8. Pain. Men and women perceive pain differently. In studies, women require more morphine than men to reach the same level of pain reduction. Women are also more likely to vocalize their pain and to seek treatment for their pain than are men. The area of the brain that is activated during pain is the amygdala, and researchers have discovered that in men, the right amygdala is activated and in women, the left amygdala is activated. The right amygdala has more connections with areas of the brain that control external functions while the right amygdala has more connections with internal functions. This difference probably explains why women perceive pain more intensely than do men.

    9. Spatial ability. Men typically have stronger spatial abilities, or being able to mentally represent a shape and its dynamics, whereas women typically struggle in this area. Medical experts have discovered that women have a thicker parietal region of the brain, which hinders the ability to mentally rotate objects–an aspect of spatial ability. Research has shown this ability in babies as young as 5 months old, negating any ideas that these abilities were strengthened by environmental influences.

    10. Susceptibility to disorders. Because of the way men and women use the two hemispheres of the brain differently, there are some disorders that men and women are susceptible to in different ways. Men are more apt to have dyslexia or other language problems. If women have dyslexia, they are more likely to compensate for it. Women, on the other hand, are more susceptible to mood disorders such as depression and anxiety. While handedness is not a disorder, these brain tendencies also explain why more men are left-handed than are women. Men are also more likely to be diagnosed with autism, ADHD, and Tourette’s Syndrome.
    -http://www.mastersofhealthcare.com/blog/2009/10-big-differences-between-mens-and-womens-brains/


    I resent your 'holier than thou, smarter than thou' attitude though. I'm almost certain that you are by no means more knowledgeable on this topic than I am, and yet you persist with your irritating jibes and insults... :rolleyes: It's ridiculous.
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    (Original post by Kreuzuerk)
    Firstly, this is slightly unrelated to w
    hat I've said so I would appreciate a response to my previous post, as opposed to simply trying to tag a response to it on to someone else's comment.

    In addition, if you wish to pursue your above argument, it's imperative to its credibility that you elaborate on your concept of 'male structures' being present in British society today. Whatever you suggest they are, I would seriously contend the opinion that they are so extensively controlling of women that, within the parameters of today's society, they prevent the realisation of equality.
    Just realised I never replied to your post.

    I think some of the masculine structures are difficult to see, and some are more obvious. As I have already said, there are various areas of the law (including self defence) that favour a male typology of behaviour over a female's and as such do not work well for women.

    In addition, criminal justice structures such as the court system do not operate in a way which supports female victims of crime. This is because the legal system has been male-dominated since its origins, and as such has discreetly been structureed to favour men over women. Examples are quite obvious in society - domestic violence and rape victims rarely get the care or justice they deserve.

    Perhaps less obvious are structures which have become so fundamental to our daily life that we fail to see their true colours. For example the values upon which employees are judged upon in a working environment. In the corporate sector aggression, determination, dedication and long hours are taken to be signs of a good employee and as such males have typically taken on more prestigious roles and climbed the career ladder at a faster pace than women.
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    (Original post by O-Ren)
    Care to expand?

    Do you think women should automatically treated like they are bad at maths? Should men be treated like they are bad at learning languages? Should women be treated like they are sensitive and fragile? Should men be treated like they are incapable of recognising a person's emotional state?

    Or do you think perhaps, each individual person should treated like they are what they are. Not the stereotype of the demographic they happen to fall into?
    In real life, though, as I explained earlier, we have to use stereotypes to pre-judge people, before we get to know them. Otherwise, how do we act towards someone? You can never act neutrally and plainly, because even that is a chosen way of acting towards someone. By assuming things about people based on their gender (and whatever other clues you might have based on first impressions) you can MASSIVELY better your chances of approaching that person in an appropriate manner.

    You do it all the time yourself. Everyone does.

    You seem to think perhaps that people are going to use average gender skills to outweigh other evidence about someone's physical or mental characteristics. I can't imagine this would ever be the case. Do you think it happens? Like, if someone demonstrates a certain aptitude or level of ability that is uncommon in their gender, witnesses will simply disbelieve it?
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    (Original post by blinkbelle)
    Just realised I never replied to your post.

    I think some of the masculine structures are difficult to see, and some are more obvious. As I have already said, there are various areas of the law (including self defence) that favour a male typology of behaviour over a female's and as such do not work well for women.

    In addition, criminal justice structures such as the court system do not operate in a way which supports female victims of crime. This is because the legal system has been male-dominated since its origins, and as such has discreetly been structureed to favour men over women. Examples are quite obvious in society - domestic violence and rape victims rarely get the care or justice they deserve.

    Perhaps less obvious are structures which have become so fundamental to our daily life that we fail to see their true colours. For example the values upon which employees are judged upon in a working environment. In the corporate sector aggression, determination, dedication and long hours are taken to be signs of a good employee and as such males have typically taken on more prestigious roles and climbed the career ladder at a faster pace than women.
    yes haha, to be honest the whole of society throughout history has been constructed according to how men see the world. Men dominated each civilisation and so built the society in a male way. Taking the view point of an off-world observer, if women were the dominant gender, and there were no "men" - or in other words, if men were as 'feminine' as women are and women were that much more 'feminine' still, then absolutely everything in human history would be utterly different.

    It is only very, very recently that we've been trying to force a square peg through a round hole, and make women join in doing all the things men do. I don't know how it will work yet, but I imagine the peg and the hole will both get scraped up a bit and then they'll "fit".
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    (Original post by O-Ren)
    I think you're a bit confused. This isn't about calling women men, it's about treating someone differently because they're female. I can promise you gay people and black people don't want to be treated any differently for being gay* or black. They want to be treated like themselves, not assumed to conform to their respective stereotypes.

    *Aside from the obvious fact that gay people don't want to be sent on blind dates with the opposite gender.
    Looking back, I think I approached this question from a weird overly-complex frame of mind, but I'll explain anyway.

    I think all humans have particular rights and opportunities, by virtue of their being human.


    'Being treated like a man' is not necessarily the 'right' way of being treated and equality doesn't imply rights. We could achieve equality just as easily by suggesting that all men be treated like women. Comparing my rights to those of men, or comparing my treatment to that of men in gauging my oppression is too narrow in scope.


    Also: quoting from something I said earlier in the thread: We should no longer need to talk about appropriating another colour/gender etc. as a way of expressing our desire for human rights. (it's a bit insulting to talk about it in that way... if I am black, it should be inconsequential to my rights, but it should not be 'as if I was white')
 
 
 
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