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    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    No, raise your child in a normal appropriate way and not in one which is radical and completely unnecessary, risking the child's psychological well being, or we'll take your child away from you.
    Oh right, so "Raise your child OUR way, or we're taking it away from you, we'll then put it with some foster parents who are likely to misstreat the child and it ends up getting even bigger problems"

    Great...
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    (Original post by opaltiger)
    Not a genderless society, simply one in which people acknowledge that gender is not the same thing as sex. Yes, gender identity is a good thing for many people, but the idea is that every person should come to terms with their identity themselves. Their biological sex shouldn't matter.

    Even if gender roles do have a biological basis, why should that matter to humans? Humans have done everything in our power to escape our biological imperatives - viz. contraception. This is a double standard: you cannot argue for one thing because it's "natural" when the vast majority of things humans do aren't "natural".

    I repeat: if you believe that a certain aspect of society is flawed, the only way to change it is to actively try and influence society. Why is it another thing to defy traditional views? If you think one way is flawed, isn't it only natural - in fact, from one point of view, isn't it morally necessary - to defy that way, no matter how traditional, and raise your child in accordance with your own views?
    But in modern society gender has been linked to sex, simply as a way of modelling distinct identities collectively and giving people a shared sense of belonging that depends on their gender but also on their sex. I don't understand why it's necessarily better for someone to use a gender identity they've constructed themselves as opposed to one taught to them by their parents, schools etc.

    Humans have done things to escape from their biological imperatives, and things that accentuate biological imperatives. An example of this is huge industry surrounding compliance to established gender roles, for the view of encouraging sexual relationships e.g. modelling industry, fashion etc. So we behave contradictorily and in complex ways; but these are reliant on ideas of gender that are imposed on society, and in order to fully appreciate society it's necessary to become fluent in understanding the importance of the way in which gender roles are assigned; this may be easy to pick up at a later stage, but no-one can be sure of this.

    I think that wrt raising your child with your own views, there's always going to be a line beyond which beliefs of parents should not be passed on e.g. radical political views (e.g. neo Nazism perhaps). It is of course the parent's responsibility to decide, but in my opinion it's wrong to establish a precedent for your child which a) you are not following yourself and b) might be deterimental towards integrating a child into the society that they live in.
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    What toilets do the kid use - girls, boys, or both. Surely everyone would realize when it never used a urinal or whatever?
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    I quite liked this comment below the article:

    "I guess I'm the only one who doesn't think this is crazy. I think people misunderstand what the parents are doing. They're not pulling Pop away from gendered activities, they're just letting Pop do and wear what Pop wants to. They're not trying to 'hide' Pop's gender from Popsself. They're doing nothing wrong, and I think more people end up in therapy due to societal and parental pressures to conform than for lack of those pressures. They're actually thinking about how they're raising their child rather than just going along with what society expects, which, in my opinion, is much better than the majority of people who raise their kids to fit their own vision of what they think their kids should be. These parents are ahead of their time, so don't be surprised if all of your great-grandchildren end up being raised in a manner like this."

    I think it's kind of cool. They're not stopping Pop from having a gender, but they're trying to avoid societal expectations of how Pop should behave. I'm sure Pop knows what gender Pop is.

    Interesting fact: Swedes have two words for gender; one that specifically refers to biological sex, and one that specifically refers to socially constructed gender.
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    (Original post by opaltiger)
    So who gets to tell parents what a "normal appropriate way" to raise their child is?
    The same way in which other parents raise their children, ie they treat them as boy or girl.

    If Pop's parents don't want their child to be stereotyped then they could still give them toys appropriate to either gender or clothes suitable for either gender. But why make the child subject to an experiment which the child hasn't volunteered to be a part of? It's ethically wrong and tantamount to abuse. No research project would ever get ethical approval for such an experiment so why should a parent?

    Some people appear to think it is a good thing for the parents to allow the child to chose their gender which is kind of stupid because Pop is either a boy or a girl. If he chooses to be a boy then what has been learnt from the experiment? That a boy will be a boy regardless?

    Similarly if Pop chooses to be a girl.

    But what happens if Pop chooses to be the opposite gender from what they physically are? How much misery and stress will the child need to go through in order to find their real gender or to physically change to their chosen gender?

    Surely it makes far more sense to raise a child as their physical gender and when they are old enough to chose a different gender than they can.

    All I can see for this child is misery and confusion. Pop is neither fish or fowl at the moment and the parents need to be aware that it may be a wonderful experiment for them but will Pop agree with them when s/he gets older?
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    (Original post by kevin_123)
    Oh right, so "Raise your child OUR way, or we're taking it away from you, we'll then put it with some foster parents who are likely to misstreat the child and it ends up getting even bigger problems"

    Great...
    Great some ad hominum argument which means absolutely nothing. Whatever.
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    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    But in modern society gender has been linked to sex, simply as a way of modelling distinct identities collectively and giving people a shared sense of belonging that depends on their gender but also on their sex. I don't understand why it's necessarily better for someone to use a gender identity they've constructed themselves as opposed to one taught to them by their parents, schools etc.
    Because, as I've already said, not everyone is cisgendered. The way society looks at it now, being transgendered is extremely difficult. If we emphasised that gender identity was not necessarily tied to sex, things would be easier for transgendered people.

    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    Humans have done things to escape from their biological imperatives, and things that accentuate biological imperatives. An example of this is huge industry surrounding compliance to established gender roles, for the view of encouraging sexual relationships e.g. modelling industry, fashion etc. So we behave contradictorily and in complex ways; but these are reliant on ideas of gender that are imposed on society, and in order to fully appreciate society it's necessary to become fluent in understanding the importance of the way in which gender roles are assigned; this may be easy to pick up at a later stage, but no-one can be sure of this.
    It's true, we've come up with gender roles and we keep to them very closely in most cases; but I don't understand why this is an argument against change. The whole point is that society needs to change.

    (Original post by Ignoramus)
    I think that wrt raising your child with your own views, there's always going to be a line beyond which beliefs of parents should not be passed on e.g. radical political views (e.g. neo Nazism perhaps). It is of course the parent's responsibility to decide, but in my opinion it's wrong to establish a precedent for your child which a) you are not following yourself and b) might be deterimental towards integrating a child into the society that they live in.
    But this isn't radical in the slightest. Refusing to have your child assigned a gender before (s)he realises the implications of this and has the chance to come to his/her own conclusions is not harming anyone. It's not harming the child - who, if society is so terrible biased against him/her, can easily choose to stick to the norms. It's not harming other people, who shouldn't really be giving a damn. It's just a slightly different way of raising your child.

    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    The same way in which other parents raise their children, ie they treat them as boy or girl.
    But who has the right to say that this is the only appropriate way? Just because everyone does things one way doesn't make that way correct.

    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    If Pop's parents don't want their child to be stereotyped then they could still give them toys appropriate to either gender or clothes suitable for either gender. But why make the child subject to an experiment which the child hasn't volunteered to be a part of? It's ethically wrong and tantamount to abuse. No research project would ever get ethical approval for such an experiment so why should a parent?
    You're making an awful analogy. This isn't just about stereotypes - though that's probably part of it - it's about gender and sex as concepts. The parents aren't "experimenting". They're simply raising their child in accordance with their own beliefs - and, I might add, if those beliefs were religious, no one would dare criticise them. Also stop being melodramatic: of course such a study would be approved, if you got enough consenting parents.

    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    Some people appear to think it is a good thing for the parents to allow the child to chose their gender which is kind of stupid because Pop is either a boy or a girl. If he chooses to be a boy then what has been learnt from the experiment? That a boy will be a boy regardless?

    Similarly if Pop chooses to be a girl.
    Not necessarily. Perhaps Pop will prefer to identify with neither gender.

    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    But what happens if Pop chooses to be the opposite gender from what they physically are? How much misery and stress will the child need to go through in order to find their real gender or to physically change to their chosen gender?
    Less than if (s)he'd been taught from a young age that gender and sex are the same thing! Also, not all transgendered people want to get SRS. Plenty are happy being transgendered.

    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    Surely it makes far more sense to raise a child as their physical gender and when they are old enough to chose a different gender than they can.
    Why would it really matter for the first few years? Why place so much emphasis on gender? Just raise the child, and let him/her come to his/her own conclusions. I don't see that gender plays a vital part in the raising of a child, particularly in the first few years, and particularly if you are trying to ignore gender stereotypes.

    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    All I can see for this child is misery and confusion. Pop is neither fish or fowl at the moment and the parents need to be aware that it may be a wonderful experiment for them but will Pop agree with them when s/he gets older?
    I repeat: this isn't an experiment. This is a couple finding something wrong with society and trying to change it. The only way our opinion - society's opinion - will ever change is if people actually do something different, and that's what this couple is doing.

    I could turn this around. Parents may be more than happy bringing up their child as male or female, but will the child agree when (s)he is older? If the child is transgendered, presumably not. Raising a child as neither gender is neutral, doesn't conform to any perceived defaults - and that, I think, is how it should be.
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    hermaphrodite!
    umm.
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    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    Great some ad hominum argument which means absolutely nothing. Whatever.
    Great, oh yeah you're right, but I can't admitt that so I'll just criticize your point without giving a valid reason to make it sound like it is really lame..
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    “Girls are told they are cute in their dresses, and boys are told they are cool with their car toys. But if you give them no gender they will be seen more as a human or not a stereotype as a boy or girl.”

    I expect Pop will rather be treated as a hermaphrodite. Gender is a part of our personality, such as our manners, thoughts, appearance etc. It determines your life as well, I do not necessarily mean those social stereotypes but rather biological aspects such as mentruation, penetration and so on.

    I, as a girl, preferred toy cars and Lego bricks to dolls. My family accepted this and was giving me my favourite toys as presents instead of pushing me to fulfill ideas of what was expected to be normal to a common girl.
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    (Original post by opaltiger)
    Because, as I've already said, not everyone is cisgendered. The way society looks at it now, being transgendered is extremely difficult. If we emphasised that gender identity was not necessarily tied to sex, things would be easier for transgendered people.

    It's true, we've come up with gender roles and we keep to them very closely in most cases; but I don't understand why this is an argument against change. The whole point is that society needs to change.

    But this isn't radical in the slightest. Refusing to have your child assigned a gender before (s)he realises the implications of this and has the chance to come to his/her own conclusions is not harming anyone. It's not harming the child - who, if society is so terrible biased against him/her, can easily choose to stick to the norms. It's not harming other people, who shouldn't really be giving a damn. It's just a slightly different way of raising your child.
    It's very true that things are difficult for transgendered people; but the way to make this better is to open attitudes of people in society towards being transgendered, not by raising your child in encouragement of gender ambiguity.

    What I've been saying is that any push for a complete societal change in this area - raising children without using gender roles - is unlikely to succeed. Change that will succeed is increased awareness of transgender, and a push for further recognition than being transgendered is valid.

    It's not as easy for a child to become part of a particular gender if they have not been brought up in accordance with one gender or another. The likelihood is that the child is cisgendered - simply because in probability terms a minority are transgendered - and the child is not going to be able to make an independent decision for perhaps another ten years; this is time spent essentially outside of whichever gender they will choose to belong to.
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    (Original post by kevin_123)
    Great, oh yeah you're right, but I can't admitt that so I'll just criticize your point without giving a valid reason to make it sound like it is really lame..
    I take it that you missed my previous post which explained exactly how I felt?
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    (Original post by opaltiger)

    I repeat: this isn't an experiment. This is a couple finding something wrong with society and trying to change it. The only way our opinion - society's opinion - will ever change is if people actually do something different, and that's what this couple is doing.

    I could turn this around. Parents may be more than happy bringing up their child as male or female, but will the child agree when (s)he is older? If the child is transgendered, presumably not. Raising a child as neither gender is neutral, doesn't conform to any perceived defaults - and that, I think, is how it should be.
    So if I believe that incest is acceptable then I can have sex with my offspring and no-one will complain or lock me up?

    Why does society need to change anyway? The vast majority of people are perfectly content to be either a male or female. Those who want to change have that option and those who don't want to confirm to either gender can as well. So the choice is already there. Why should these parents be permitted to foist their beliefs that that situation is wrong on their child?

    Perhaps you have a personal motive for accepting the parent's choice but it's not all about you. It's about enabling that child to live in society as it actually is and not how its parents believe it should be.
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    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    So if I believe that incest is acceptable then I can have sex with my offspring and no-one will complain or lock me up?
    I was hoping we could avoid an argument like this, but oh well.

    No, that is not the same at all. Parents have the right to raise a child in accordance with their own beliefs. On the other hand, children have basic human rights. One of these trumps the other.

    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    Why does society need to change anyway? The vast majority of people are perfectly content to be either a male or female. Those who want to change have that option and those who don't want to confirm to either gender can as well. So the choice is already there. Why should these parents be permitted to foist their beliefs that that situation is wrong on their child?
    The choice is there, but often making that choice results in a difficult experience for the person. Just as in some areas being openly gay is an extremely difficult choice, being openly transgendered can be extremely difficult. The idea is to make these things normal. As long as children are raised cisgendered by default, transgendered people will face a difficult time gaining acceptance.

    That's why the parents have every right to raise their child as they wish. They believe there is something wrong with society, and they are trying to change it. Unless you honestly thing there is One True Way (TM) to raise a child, I don't see why you have such a hard time accepting the fact that maybe some people want to do it differently.

    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    Perhaps you have a personal motive for accepting the parent's choice but it's not all about you.
    Sure I have a personal motive: I think they're right! But I would argue just as strongly in favour of a parent's choice even if I didn't agree with it - excepting, of course, cases where the child is actively harmed.

    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    It's about enabling that child to live in society as it actually is and not how its parents believe it should be.
    You're wrong. I've said this so, so many times: I will say it again. The only way society ever changes is with people actively taking steps to change it. Parents should raise their children to be the way they think they should be, not the way society wants them to be.
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    (Original post by opaltiger)
    I was hoping we could avoid an argument like this, but oh well.

    No, that is not the same at all. Parents have the right to raise a child in accordance with their own beliefs. On the other hand, children have basic human rights. One of these trumps the other.



    The choice is there, but often making that choice results in a difficult experience for the person. Just as in some areas being openly gay is an extremely difficult choice, being openly transgendered can be extremely difficult. The idea is to make these things normal. As long as children are raised cisgendered by default, transgendered people will face a difficult time gaining acceptance.

    That's why the parents have every right to raise their child as they wish. They believe there is something wrong with society, and they are trying to change it. Unless you honestly thing there is One True Way (TM) to raise a child, I don't see why you have such a hard time accepting the fact that maybe some people want to do it differently.


    Sure I have a personal motive: I think they're right! But I would argue just as strongly in favour of a parent's choice even if I didn't agree with it - excepting, of course, cases where the child is actively harmed.



    You're wrong. I've said this so, so many times: I will say it again. The only way society ever changes is with people actively taking steps to change it. Parents should raise their children to be the way they think they should be, not the way society wants them to be.
    Do you seriously think that there will be many parents who say let's not tell anyone what our baby's gender is just because of those two prats? I don't think so. Though I grant there may be a few oddities who will think it's a good idea!

    If they want to change society there are far more important issues that could be targeted. The gap between rich and poor. The unequality of educational standards etc. If you are going to seek to change the human condition then it would make sense to take an issue which people actually care about and not one which could end up completely disgendering their child and make it impossible for them to live a normal life.

    And it is the child's welfare that I am concerned about, not some airy-fairy concept on a soap box.
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    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    Do you seriously think that there will be many parents who say let's not tell anyone what our baby's gender is just because of those two prats? I don't think so. Though I grant there may be a few oddities who will think it's a good idea!
    Yup! And then a few more... and a few more...

    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    If they want to change society there are far more important issues that could be targeted. The gap between rich and poor. The unequality of educational standards etc. If you are going to seek to change the human condition then it would make sense to take an issue which people actually care about and not one which could end up completely disgendering their child and make it impossible for them to live a normal life.

    And it is the child's welfare that I am concerned about, not some airy-fairy concept on a soap box.
    Why must they target only one issue? Who says they aren't also socialist activists trying to eliminate the class gap? But I digress.

    The only reason you think the child's welfare is even at risk is because you're so used to how everyone else is. It is the instinctive "different is dangerous" reaction. Which is what all my points have been about: we have to start somewhere!
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    (Original post by opaltiger)
    Yup! And then a few more... and a few more...



    Why must they target only one issue? Who says they aren't also socialist activists trying to eliminate the class gap? But I digress.

    The only reason you think the child's welfare is even at risk is because you're so used to how everyone else is. It is the instinctive "different is dangerous" reaction. Which is what all my points have been about: we have to start somewhere!
    Why? Why do we have to change a system that works perfectly well simply to pacify a few oddities who are narked with how things are?

    What benefit do I get from this?

    What benefit does the child get?

    Who wins?
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    (Original post by puddlejumper)
    Why? Why do we have to change a system that works perfectly well simply to pacify a few oddities who are narked with how things are?

    What benefit do I get from this?

    What benefit does the child get?

    Who wins?
    If there are some people unhappy with a system, it obviously doesn't work perfectly well. So we change it a little.

    You get no benefit. You are not harmed. Why should you care?

    The child gets the benefit of awareness. Awareness of what gender is; of the fact that being biologically male doesn't mean your gender is male; of the fact that being transgendered is nothing special. If a child is cisgendered, well, (s)he'll realise that and nothing will be different. If a child is transgendered, on the other hand, the benefit of being able to be open about this and not feel guilty about being "weird" or whatever is immense.

    Who wins? Anyone who has been harmed by the frankly close-minded view of gender held by most of society. I am sure that, if we stopped assuming sex = gender, discrimination on the basis of gender would also start to disappear.
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    Attention-seeking.
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    (Original post by Ivanka)
    “Girls are told they are cute in their dresses, and boys are told they are cool with their car toys. But if you give them no gender they will be seen more as a human or not a stereotype as a boy or girl.”

    I expect Pop will rather be treated as a hermaphrodite. Gender is a part of our personality, such as our manners, thoughts, appearance etc. It determines your life as well, I do not necessarily mean those social stereotypes but rather biological aspects such as mentruation, penetration and so on.

    I, as a girl, preferred toy cars and Lego bricks to dolls. My family accepted this and was giving me my favourite toys as presents instead of pushing me to fulfill ideas of what was expected to be normal to a common girl.
    Pop's parents aren't doing much different to what your parents, and many others, already do. Lots of girls would rather play with cars or action men and I presume you have no problem with this. Likewise, many little boys would rather play with dolls or play dress up, why not let them if they enjoy it? Pop's parents are not denying his/her sex, family members know Pop's sex, as does Pop, they are just letting Pop figure out what he/she likes, what toys he/she wants to play with and what type of clothes he/she wants to wear, rather than pushing Pop to fulfill ideas of what is expected to be normal to a common girl or boy.

    What business is it of strangers whether Pop is a boy or a girl?
 
 
 
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