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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Obviously I don't know why or how you formed your opinion about feminism, which is why I spoke generally about the attitudes towards feminism. But men and women are not equal in society, and I don't see how that can be disputed. Among many, many other things, women are nowhere near as powerful as men. I really don't understand how you can say that feminism has achieved all it can when only 1/5 of politicians are female. That's not 'splitting hairs', that's a shocking percentage. We are undeniably a patriarchal society, so how on earth can men and women be equal? Even if we dismiss 'hair splitting' issues such as the pay gap, sexual objectification, rape laws etc- even without these issues, the fact is this country is governed by men.
    What do you propose? Telling the people who elected the males "hey sorry, but this candidate has too much of a penis and I know better than you all, so I'll appoint a woman to 'represent' you instead"?

    All that can be done without the state engaging in coercive behaviour is to grant equal rights before the law. "Society" will change because it is in "society's" interests to. And it is in "society's" interests to have the best people doing whatever job, not the best man or best woman. Companies that exclusively hire men for the boardroom jobs will not perform as well as those that exclusively hire the best for those jobs.
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    (Original post by Hy~)
    What do you propose? Telling the people who elected the males "hey sorry, but this candidate has too much of a penis and I know better than you all, so I'll appoint a woman to 'represent' you instead"?

    All that can be done without the state engaging in coercive behaviour is to grant equal rights before the law. "Society" will change because it is in "society's" interests to. And it is in "society's" interests to have the best people doing whatever job, not the best man or best woman. Companies that exclusively hire men for the boardroom jobs will not perform as well as those that exclusively hire the best for those jobs.
    I don't 'propose' anything, I'm not a politician and I'm not pretending to have the answer. That's besides the point, really.
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    (Original post by Jessaay!)
    It's inferred by a lot of feminism. If we increased the number of women in power, a lot of it would be due to positive discrimination rather than their actual value.
    I'm at a loss as to why you're suddenly acting as though positive discrimination is the issue here. I'd be happy to discuss positive discrimnation with you but right now I'm confused as to whether I've convinced you regarding equality, since you didn't respond properly to my argument.

    Soo..

    Of course it's down to historical factors. Whatever the reasons for this overwhelmingly male government, that doesn't stop the fact that we are a country where, when it comes to government (and other arenas of power such as business, finance, industry) men have the power and men make the decisions. This is not equality, and no amount of excuses can redefine this as equality. We are practically by definition a patriarchy, which means there just isn't equality.

    OED definition of equality-

    The condition of having equal dignity, rank, or privileges with others; the fact of being on an equal footing.

    or

    The condition of being equal in power, ability, achievement, or excellence. Also (rarely), the condition of being ‘equal to an emergency’.

    In what way can men and women be 'equal in power' or have 'equal rank' when the country is run by men?
    Can I get a reply to this please?
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    I'm at a loss as to why you're suddenly acting as though positive discrimination is the issue here. I'd be happy to discuss positive discrimnation with you but right now I'm confused as to whether I've convinced you regarding equality, since you didn't respond properly to my argument.

    Soo..



    Can I get a reply to this please?
    We have equal dignity, and equal rank as a whole. Rank is not defined by those in power, they skew the meaning of rank as it were. The basis of it is, women have equal opportunities and we are, to the majority of the perhaps more educated population, regarded on more or less an equal basis to men now apart from biological differences. If we ensured more women were in power in order to equal the number of men in power, then it WOULD be positive discrimination because, as I've mentioned before, there are not as many women trying to enter politics as men, and there are not as many strong female minds in the political sector to ensure the country runs as smoothly (I say smoothly in a very loose way but that's best saving for another debate) as the men. And tbh, Margaret Thatcher probably gave a bad name to all female politicians.

    By historical differences I mentioned before, the House of Lords is mostly governed by men, mainly because of inheritance.
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    (Original post by Jessaay!)
    We have equal dignity, and equal rank as a whole. Rank is not defined by those in power, they skew the meaning of rank as it were. The basis of it is, women have equal opportunities and we are, to the majority of the perhaps more educated population, regarded on more or less an equal basis to men now apart from biological differences. If we ensured more women were in power in order to equal the number of men in power, then it WOULD be positive discrimination because, as I've mentioned before, there are not as many women trying to enter politics as men, and there are not as many strong female minds in the political sector to ensure the country runs as smoothly (I say smoothly in a very loose way but that's best saving for another debate) as the men. And tbh, Margaret Thatcher probably gave a bad name to all female politicians.

    By historical differences I mentioned before, the House of Lords is mostly governed by men, mainly because of inheritance.
    If we take 'rank' to mean position in society then men and women don't really have equal rank, nor do they have equal power. Therefore I'm at a loss as to how you can say there's equality.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    If we take 'rank' to mean position in society then men and women don't really have equal rank, nor do they have equal power. Therefore I'm at a loss as to how you can say there's equality.
    I view society seperately to the political power. In which case, women have equal positions to men, and so they are ranked as high. It is not like the 19th and early 20th century where men were ranked as above and more important than the women, whose places were in the kitchen and not in important positions in business or even in the home.

    Also, you're ignoring the parts where I put forward reasons WHY women weren't in the same political power. For god's sake, I mean, should we vote for the next female politician just to make women have a little higher political rank? We are separate beings, we don't need to be grouped as a sex. If one woman falls, the rest of the women don't have to.
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    lol @ politics talk.
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    (Original post by Jessaay!)
    I view society seperately to the political power. In which case, women have equal positions to men, and so they are ranked as high. It is not like the 19th and early 20th century where men were ranked as above and more important than the women, whose places were in the kitchen and not in important positions in business or even in the home.

    Also, you're ignoring the parts where I put forward reasons WHY women weren't in the same political power. For god's sake, I mean, should we vote for the next female politician just to make women have a little higher political rank? We are separate beings, we don't need to be grouped as a sex. If one woman falls, the rest of the women don't have to.

    How can you view society as separate to the political power? It's all intertwined, separating the two would be bizarre. How the country is governed is essential to how society works.

    Even if you did put aside the government, women are not in equal positions to men AT ALL, how can you say that? Almost all of the most powerful companies in the world are ran by men. The richest people in the world and in this country are overwhelmingly male.

    You put forward some reasons why women are in power, yes, but you can't act as though these reasons make it ok- as if we can say, OH so it's for historical reasons, oh that's ok then we don't need to change. Obviously the reasons are important, but not so that we can dismiss the issue. They're important because we need to look at these reasons and figure out how we can change things. Again, why feminism is needed.

    I'm not sure why you keep mentioning positive discrimination since I haven't suggested it as a solution once.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    How can you view society as separate to the political power? It's all intertwined, separating the two would be bizarre. How the country is governed is essential to how society works.

    Even if you did put aside the government, women are not in equal positions to men AT ALL, how can you say that? Almost all of the most powerful companies in the world are ran by men. The richest people in the world and in this country are overwhelmingly male.

    You put forward some reasons why women are in power, yes, but you can't act as though these reasons make it ok- as if we can say, OH so it's for historical reasons, oh that's ok then we don't need to change. Obviously the reasons are important, but not so that we can dismiss the issue. They're important because we need to look at these reasons and figure out how we can change things. Again, why feminism is needed.

    I'm not sure why you keep mentioning positive discrimination since I haven't suggested it as a solution once.
    I realise you're not mentioning it as a solution, but what else do you suggest? The fact is women DO have equal opportunities to men, just because men have more power in business at the moment and in political power doesn't mean it's because women are discriminated against. Women have all the power to own businesses as men. It's up to the individual woman to work their way into power, and if they're strong they can do that. The only other way we can shorten the divide is by positive discrimination.
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    (Original post by Jessaay!)
    I realise you're not mentioning it as a solution, but what else do you suggest? The fact is women DO have equal opportunities to men, just because men have more power in business at the moment and in political power doesn't mean it's because women are discriminated against. Women have all the power to own businesses as men. It's up to the individual woman to work their way into power, and if they're strong they can do that. The only other way we can shorten the divide is by positive discrimination.
    Of course there's things we can do about it. Obviously I don't have all the solutions, but what we should be doing is, as a society, really really examining why it is that women don't have the confidence or motivation to succed in certain powers, and then try and figure out ways to overcome this. We should be trying to ease the woman's responsibilities when it comes to children and be equaling them out between the mother and the father, so that women feel more confident about entering demanding careers.

    The first step to changing anything is acknowledging that there's a problem. The very worst thing we can do is what you're doing- saying that there's no problem, that men and women are equal, and that feminism isn't necessary.

    You might as well say 'well there's nothing we can do about racism because everyone has equal opportunities so it's just up to individuals, so anti-racism campaigns are a load of crap and everyone is equal amen'.
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    (Original post by Hugh-Jackman)
    tbh this thread sends the wrong message...women should definitely do weights at the gym.....ennis has very good genetics...trains hard and alot...plus consistently for years....plus a great diet and she still looks good.....dont be discouraged to do weights by this thread.....to get anymore muscular....you'd likely need steroids and an aim to get muscular
    Id agree with this for sure.

    Girls, doing moderate weights regularly isnt going to turn you into a superhuman body building machine from the brazilian rainforest or anything. Just because the bird in the OP has obviously worked really hard to get a body like that which can help her to be a good athlete in competitive events etc.

    If you lift a few dumbells your not going to be arnie ladies! it will help you lose weight and tone you up, dont be scared to do it as it takes alot of time to become a muscle daemon.

    Oh yeah and the girl in the white top everyone keeps posting is V hot.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Of course there's things we can do about it. Obviously I don't have all the solutions, but what we should be doing is, as a society, really really examining why it is that women don't have the confidence or motivation to succed in certain powers, and then try and figure out ways to overcome this. We should be trying to ease the woman's responsibilities when it comes to children and be equaling them out between the mother and the father, so that women feel more confident about entering demanding careers.

    The first step to changing anything is acknowledging that there's a problem. The very worst thing we can do is what you're doing- saying that there's no problem, that men and women are equal, and that feminism isn't necessary.

    You might as well say 'well there's nothing we can do about racism because everyone has equal opportunities so it's just up to individuals, so anti-racism campaigns are a load of crap and everyone is equal amen'.
    If women had the power and confidence they need, they'd succeed without people having to examine it and cradle them into a higher position. End.

    Also, racism is an entirely different matter. The next time a guy discriminates against the gender as a whole and in an insulting, stereotypical manner, I will defend it, but my defence will not stretch to feminism and I rarely see that sort of thing anyway, so it cannot be compared to racism.
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    (Original post by Jessaay!)
    If women had the power and confidence they need, they'd succeed without people having to examine it and cradle them into a higher position. End.
    Except they obviously don't have that power and confidence, because they're not succeeding to the standard men are. So...?

    (Original post by Jessaay!)
    Also, racism is an entirely different matter. The next time a guy discriminates against the gender as a whole and in an insulting, stereotypical manner, I will defend it, but my defence will not stretch to feminism and I rarely see that sort of thing anyway, so it cannot be compared to racism.
    Why can't it be compared to racism?

    You seem to have some funny ideas about feminism. Fighting from discrimination and stereotyping? That is feminism. What exactly do you think feminism is if it isn't that?
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Except they obviously don't have that power and confidence, because they're not succeeding to the standard men are. So...?



    Why can't it be compared to racism?

    You seem to have some funny ideas about feminism. Fighting from discrimination and stereotyping? That is feminism. What exactly do you think feminism is if it isn't that?
    Of course I bloody know what feminism is, whether I agree there is a basis to it, is debatable. I don't even think there's any prominent discrimination anymore so feminism just becomes ridiculous.

    And if they don't have the confidence then it's their own doing, there are many women out there who have had the confidence and made it in business.
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    (Original post by Jessaay!)
    Of course I bloody know what feminism is, whether I agree there is a basis to it, is debatable. I don't even think there's any prominent discrimination anymore so feminism just becomes ridiculous.

    And if they don't have the confidence then it's their own doing, there are many women out there who have had the confidence and made it in business.
    So you don't think it matters that a huge amount of women don't have the confidence or education to succeed? Or that they can't, because of the pressure to raise children? You literally don't think it's a problem that this country is run by men, that the richest and most powerful people in this country are nearly all men, you don't care about this inequality? You don't think anyone should be trying to change it, and you just think it's the women's problem and they need to deal with it themselves?

    These are genuine questions by the way, because if you genuinely don't give a crap about the inequality and don't think we should do anything to change it then you're right, you're not really a feminist, and there's no point in trying to argue about something you don't give a **** about.

    But actually, there are things we can do about it, as I've shown, and a lot of people do give a crap, and that's why feminism is necessary. If you don't want anything to do with changing the attitudes in society then whatever, it's a shame, but for the people who do care, feminism has a massively important role.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    don't give a crap
    I don't give a crap. Shut up already.

    There are just as many opportunities out there for women as there are for men. Top jobs ie government should be earnt on merit, being the best for the job, not because you have a vagina and the ratio of male:female swings in your favour. If women want those jobs, then they need to start putting themselves forward for them. You're fighting a battle that has already been won.

    Personally, when I have children, I actually want to stay at home and look after them as my own choice not due to any social pressure.

    anyway.

    Muscles on women...yay or nay?
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    (Original post by Wren)
    I don't give a crap. Shut up already.

    There are just as many opportunities out there for women as there are for men. Top jobs ie government should be earnt on merit, being the best for the job, not because you have a vagina and the ratio of male:female swings in your favour. If women want those jobs, then they need to start putting themselves forward for them. You're fighting a battle that has already been won.

    Personally, when I have children, I actually want to stay at home and look after them as my own choice not due to any social pressure.
    Or, yknow, you could read the whole argument and realise that wasn't the point. But if you actually 'don't give a crap' then please don't bother replying again or anything.
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    I read the first sentence of your little argument and got bored. Go get your own thread.

    Check out this goldust...



    Apparently female. This is when muscles on women go too far
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    BTW the sats have perfect bodies

    and I've met them in real life, and can conclude they are fineeeee in real life too

    spoke to Molly for a bit, sweet girl.

    notice the lack of what I'd call 'extreme muscle/lean-ness' neither are they skinnyfat

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfGzWntCbxY
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    nothing like a toned midsection :drool:
    http://i27.tinypic.com/auuvt2.jpg
 
 
 
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