Public Vs Comprehensive Watch

objectivism
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#81
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#81
(Original post by zaf1986)
I'll take my chances sending my children to comprehensives and in process stay firm in my principles.

Its quite unusual for you to be advocating the betraying principles given your dogmatic approach in the past.

But thats my point!! Its not YOUR chances, its your childs!!!

Again its not betraying my principles if my higher principle is to do what is best for my child. Do i stick to an ideology or to my child's best interests? For me it is the latter everytime, parents who chose the former are bad parents.
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objectivism
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#82
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#82
(Original post by zaf1986)
I used to think you were intelligent. Obviously I was wrong :rolleyes:
Why? For not getting annoyed by what people say on a forum i'm not inteligent? Have you ever studied logic?
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objectivism
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#83
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#83
(Original post by zaf1986)
Precisely. And many comprehensive school pupils can be brilliant students who will go to the top universities.

True though propotionally private schools go onto the best universites and thus have the best, to use the word i used before, 'chances'. The question is how willing are you to risk your childs future in the name of your ego?
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Socrates
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#84
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#84
(Original post by objectivism)
But thats my point!! Its not YOUR chances, its your childs!!!

Again its not betraying my principles if my higher principle is to do what is best for my child. Do i stick to an ideology or to my child's best interests? For me it is the latter everytime, parents who chose the former are bad parents.
I have confidence in my child. You obviously don't.
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objectivism
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#85
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#85
(Original post by zaf1986)
I have confidence in my child. You obviously don't.
No rather i have no confidence in many comps.
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Socrates
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#86
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#86
(Original post by objectivism)
No rather i have no confidence in many comps.
Because you've never been to one. My whole education was in the state sector.
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objectivism
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#87
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#87
(Original post by zaf1986)
Because you've never been to one. My whole education was in the state sector.
Once again wrong. Just because you think you did well out of comps does not mean they are great for all. You are judging on your own expereinces but i prefer to look at the broader picture, the full stats, the places where people go to uni etc as opposed to have a narrow field of information.

Btw what uni are you going to?
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kellywood_5
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#88
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#88
(Original post by objectivism)
But thats my point!! Its not YOUR chances, its your childs!!!

Again its not betraying my principles if my higher principle is to do what is best for my child. Do i stick to an ideology or to my child's best interests? For me it is the latter everytime, parents who chose the former are bad parents.
So parents who choose to send their children to a state comprehensive because they believe them to have the ability to succeed there, rather than spending lots of money on a private education they don't agree with, are bad parents? Surely in addition to what is taught at school, it's important to teach children to have beliefs and principles that they stick to? What kind of example would you be setting them by doing something completely against what you supposedly stand for?
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kellywood_5
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#89
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#89
(Original post by zaf1986)
Because you've never been to one. My whole education was in the state sector.
Same here.
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kellywood_5
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#90
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#90
(Original post by objectivism)
Once again wrong. Just because you think you did well out of comps does not mean they are great for all. You are judging on your own expereinces but i prefer to look at the broader picture, the full stats, the places where people go to uni etc as opposed to have a narrow field of information.

Btw what uni are you going to?
Just because some people do well out of private schools doesn't mean they're great for all either. Just because a school has a 100% A-B grade pass rate at A-level and sends x amount of students to Oxbridge every year doesn't mean your child would get As and Bs and go to Oxbridge if they attended that school.
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Crimson Black
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#91
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#91
No, but it means, due to higher teacher quality, time, and resources that private schools have, that your child has a GREATER chance of gaining As and Bs. It does not, I agree, mean that your child automatically goes to Oxbridge, but due to the fact that he has a greater chance of gaining As and Bs means that he/she will have a greater chance of getting into a high-grade university. And in the end, parents send their children to private school in the HOPE that they will get GOOD GRADES due to the above reasons - they are taking a CHANCE on the child's future.
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Mata
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#92
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#92
How about, in who knows how many years time, we see if we have the money to send our children to private schools?

If we do, ask *them* if they want to go. At 10, I was old enough to make the decision between comp and grammar. I think that it should be the child's choice, as it will affect them. You can ask them again at 12, 14, 16 just in case.
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oriel historian
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#93
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#93
Hmm I think this argument is a bit skewed. I went to a comprehensive and am studying at Oxford (as my name suggests!). The people who did well in my school tended to be the middle class kids, namely the sons & daughters of teachers, doctors, pharmacists etc. The self-same middle class kids who had we lived in another area probably would have gone to a private school and left people such as myself to struggle through the tough existence of a comprehensive school. It isn't easy, and sometimes I wonder if those who have had a private education - please don't immediately jump on what I say here, I have plenty of friends who were privately educated - realise just how tough comprehensives can be. There can be no comparison to the inner city comprehensive in the private sector, nor the endemic problems that are rife in state education.

As for the argument over state or private, my county has two types of secondary school - a welsh medium comprehensive or an english medium one. This is fairly common in Wales, as such I have seen Comprehensive Education and only that. I have to say it works for those that want it to, and provides a basic education whether those people realise it or not for the majority that (lets face it) don't want to be there. This is why comprehensives such as the one I went to are branching out into fields that would have been taught in a Secondary Modern forty years ago. For instance my school will be teaching Construction from next year onwards, education after all isn't all about getting to Oxbridge or getting AAA at A Level (or in cases much more), would this happen in a private school? I think not. This is the great benefit of state comprehensive education: it provides for all as it should.

The problem isn't state or private, the problem must surely be quality of teachers. These days those teachers who truly care about their charges, who instill a sense of wanting to learn, fascination, are few and far between. Thankfully my school was staffed by teachers who cared about their work rather than simply being there because the Golden Handshake was all too tempting post graduation. We have to re-evaluate teacher training first not worry about the differences between state and private.
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natcho
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#94
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#94
(Original post by oriel historian)
. There can be no comparison to the inner city comprehensive in the private sector, nor the endemic problems that are rife in state education.
You're right - as a private school student I find it hard to empathise with what goes on in the state sector, aside from what I've seen in Grange Hill and heard from friends at state schools. What kind of endemic problems are you talking about?

(Original post by oriel historian)
This is the great benefit of state comprehensive education: it provides for all as it should.
If you mean "the great benefit" they have over private schools, in this regard, then I don't really think this is a "benefit" as such. It's certainly true that many state comp's offer a broader range of subjects that private schools, in many cases. But it's not asthough the private schools are *failing* their students by not, for isntance, teaching construction. If you're not satisfied by the subjects a private school offers then you simply don't go to that school, you're not being starved of opportunity.

If thats not what you meant, my appologies, ignore the above.

(Original post by oriel historian)
We have to re-evaluate teacher training first not worry about the differences between state and private.
Too true amigo, too true.
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kellywood_5
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#95
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#95
(Original post by GengisKahn)
No, but it means, due to higher teacher quality, time, and resources that private schools have, that your child has a GREATER chance of gaining As and Bs. It does not, I agree, mean that your child automatically goes to Oxbridge, but due to the fact that he has a greater chance of gaining As and Bs means that he/she will have a greater chance of getting into a high-grade university. And in the end, parents send their children to private school in the HOPE that they will get GOOD GRADES due to the above reasons - they are taking a CHANCE on the child's future.
Agreed, but if your child is bright and hard-working, they have a high chance of getting As and Bs and going to a top university even if they attend a state comprehensive, and some parents would prefer to spend their hard-earned money on things like decorating their house or going on holiday rather than paying good money for something that can be achieved for free. I agree it's easier to achieve those things at a private school, but life isn't always easy and sometimes you have to work very hard to get what you want. I feel it's worthwhile teaching children that from a young age.
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Crimson Black
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#96
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#96
As parents you want more of a guarantee though - and therefore send their child to private school. Intelligence or lack of it in early age is NO indicator, unfortunately, to how intelligent a child turns out to be once he had matured. I was rubbish, absolutely crud, at german primary school (where I got 3s/4s in subjects on a scale of 1=best, 6=worst); then I didn't do great at GCSE (A*A*AAAABBB2 - I could have done better, but didn't know better then), but have thankfully "academically" matured (As= AAAA; pred A2 AAAB). My point is this: if I hadn't been focused on for academic assistance and coaching in private school, my results would have been at least a grade lower than those above. So private education, at least in my personal case, gave me a greater chance of getting good grades. I had, and was made to, work very hard during schooldays, and also unaided during holidays.

Without private school, I would have gone down the academic drain. "Bright and hardworking" comes through nuturing, not necessarily nature. Nature gives you the intelligence to achieve, school the dedication to achievement. And private schools, on the whole, are more dedicated to achievement, it seems.
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kellywood_5
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#97
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#97
(Original post by GengisKahn)
As parents you want more of a guarantee though - and therefore send their child to private school. Intelligence or lack of it in early age is NO indicator, unfortunately, to how intelligent a child turns out to be once he had matured. I was rubbish, absolutely crud, at german primary school (where I got 3s/4s in subjects on a scale of 1=best, 6=worst); then I didn't do great at GCSE (A*A*AAAABBB2 - I could have done better, but didn't know better then), but have thankfully "academically" matured (As= AAAA; pred A2 AAAB). My point is this: if I hadn't been focused on for academic assistance and coaching in private school, my results would have been at least a grade lower than those above. So private education, at least in my personal case, gave me a greater chance of getting good grades. I had, and was made to, work very hard during schooldays, and also unaided during holidays.

Without private school, I would have gone down the academic drain. "Bright and hardworking" comes through nuturing, not necessarily nature. Nature gives you the intelligence to achieve, school the dedication to achievement. And private schools, on the whole, are more dedicated to achievement, it seems.
I guess what it comes down to in the end is whether a parent feels the benefits are worth the costs, and that will depend on personal opinion. Also, it varies according to the child. If you know your child is going to do well and they're dedicated to their work, there's no point sending them to private school, but if they show signs of being below average or lacking in motivation, a private school would help them to get better results.
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Crimson Black
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#98
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#98
(Original post by kellywood_5)
I guess what it comes down to in the end is whether a parent feels the benefits are worth the costs, and that will depend on personal opinion. Also, it varies according to the child. If you know your child is going to do well and they're dedicated to their work, there's no point sending them to private school, but if they show signs of being below average or lacking in motivation, a private school would help them to get better results.
What a very succinct summary of what we all knew already! No sarcasm.
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Champagne Breakfast
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#99
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#99
(Original post by kellywood_5)
I guess what it comes down to in the end is whether a parent feels the benefits are worth the costs, and that will depend on personal opinion. Also, it varies according to the child. If you know your child is going to do well and they're dedicated to their work, there's no point sending them to private school, but if they show signs of being below average or lacking in motivation, a private school would help them to get better results.
I'm afraid I have to say that I disagree - if your child is one who works hard naturally then there shouldn't really be an argument for not sending him to private school if you have the money - you should assume he will carry on working hard at private school EVEN WITH the 'spoon-feeding' that seems to go on, make use of the overall better quality of teaching there, the facilities, societies etc that they generally have and end up doing even better than a hard-working student from a state school. Surely?
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Champagne Breakfast
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#100
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#100
(Original post by kellywood_5)
Yes, but even within the same area, there are good and bad parts, so not everyone will have the same amount of money, whereas almost everyone at a private school is fairly rich. Also, by mixing with different people, I meant people of different abilities as well as social classes, which you wouldn't get at the top private schools because they're so selective.
Any idiot can blunder his/her way through common entrance - there are some *serious* idiots at private school who are there on other things like sport or because they fortunately made out that they were cleverer than they really are or fluked the exams.

There is a huuuge variety of abilities at private schools - some people are there on music scholarships, art scholarships, sport scholarships, academic scholarships, some are just of average/above average intelligence, some are stupid, some are computer types, some are actors, some are all-rounders. And moving away from just abilities:

Some are from China, some are from America, some are lords, most are rich (admittedly), some can't afford the uniform, some are famous, some will live insignificant lives, some are small, some are tall, some are fat, some are thin, some have blond hair, some have green eyes - ok i'll stop I'm getting a bit carried away, but you get the point I hope
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