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    (Original post by kellywood_5)
    If a parent honestly doesn't believe their child needs to go to private school to succeed in life, why are they bad parents for not wasting their money? I don't know whether you've ever been to a state school- I guess not- but you don't have to 'suffer' just because you go to one. You can, and many people do, achieve good grades, get into a good university and have a successful future, which is surely the aim of education. Socialist? Don't make me laugh- I support the Conservatives! :rofl: As for drugs and bullying, I'm sure they go on to a certain extent in private schools as well, especially drugs since the students have the money to buy them.
    Education = DEVELOPMENT OF CHARACTER/mental powers (look it up in a good dictionary)

    The aim of education is not merely grades and university, but to turn people into well-rounded beings - which is exactly what private schools aim to do, through their generally excellent facilities, teaching quality (yes... spoon-feeding if you like...) and opportunities offered.

    You say earlier on that, basically, because state schools have rubbish teachers and poor facilities, you should send your child to a state school so he/she can learn how to cope and fend for him/herself. Do you think at Oxbridge, or any top university, they have teachers who neither know nor care how to teach? Who are there for the paycheck? Do you think that in a real-life job the learning process is similar to that we are going through now? Do you think that they write syllabus materials for businessmen? If you study hard, you will get into a good university. If you get into a good university and study hard, it will be much easier for you to find a respectable, well-paying job. If you find a respectable, well-paying job, work hard and don't spend your money too extravagantly, you are sorted - end of story.

    I have to say, I am *seriously* surprised that you support the Tories and yet can take this kind of attitude towards private schools.
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    I can't believe I'm being lectured on hypocrisy by someone who claims to be against private schools, yet then proceeds to have a long debate about why they're so much better than state schools and why people should send their kids to them!
    I don't usually speak for ol' objectivism, but I believe he was being the devil's advocate on that occasion.
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    (Original post by kellywood_5)
    I can, but unfortunately you can't see that private schools have a majority of students from the same social background who tend to be well-behaved and hard-working because of parental pressure and intelligent due to the selective nature of the school. Therefore they still don't have a very wide mix of people, whereas comprehensives by their very nature are designed to provide for all irrespective of social class or ability.
    At comprehensives, you don't have half the opportunities to travel the world half as much and see life *outside* of England. You don't have half as many (filthy rich may I add) foreign students coming there to study, and so have no real contact with non-English people (yeah you might have Blacks, you might have Chinese, you might have Indians, I know - but they are ANGLICISED).

    I'm sorry but I do not understand how you can possibly say there will be such a wide mix of people in comprehensives. They will all be of largely the same background - You will not, for example, have upper-class - but that's ok right, because they are a minority? You will get people of roughly the same social background - a respectable middle class parent wouldn't send his child to school with a bunch of chavs if he could help and vice versa, and you know it. Yeah, there are going to be some from different backgrounds, but even at a school like Eton you get that - have you heard about their Sixth-Form Scholar? They allow a hard-working state school pupil to join in the sixth-form and pay for their uniform as some-one mentioned on another post.

    Private schools are not designed for all irrespective of ability, because they are by their very nature competitive. And what's so wrong in being competitive, or 'elitist' as you would no doubt say. Without competition, people don't get better - in private school there is a constant competitive atmosphere (for example, as I said, the way people are often bullied for being too stupid rather than too clever) and huge expectations, which leads to huge achievements. At state school it doesn't matter what you do, because state schools are by their very nature uncompetitive and un-elitist, and therefore there is no motivation to strive to become great or beat the next person. Life is a struggle, animals and humans are by their very nature competitive to better each other. It's not so un-natural as you might think.
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    (Original post by The Ace is Back)
    Take any service - the more you pay for it, the more you get out of it. Of course, you can work your way around this, you could get your academic education free from the government then enrole your child in extra-curricular art lessons etc in the town/city where you live, but the public school provides all of this, at a price. That's why I say if you can comfortably afford it you should send your child to a public school! The only *real* valid argument against them is what you have been repeating, the fact that you are less likely to work independently if you have so much spoon-feeding from a public school
    Kellywood I refer you to my previous post
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    And by the way most of the points you were arguing with objectivism about I have already covered earlier on
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    (Original post by kellywood_5)
    Wtaching News Night and reading a newspaper isn't the same as actually experiencing something.
    No, but reading the newspaper will tell you a lot more about the *real world*, outside of your world in which only state schools, bad teachers, bullying, drugs and poor facilities seem to exist
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    (Original post by kellywood_5)
    As for you, you seem more interested in personal attacks than issues
    (Original post by kellywood_5)
    make you more worldly than someone who just reads about it and says 'oh gosh, how awful!'
    :rolleyes:
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    I went to a comprehensive and couldn't have asked for a better education. On the other hand the school had a number of behavioural difficulties that disrupted classes. Generally anywhere is good as long as it has a library where you can sit and do independent study.
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    I went to a private school, but I'd much prefer if I could go to quite good government school...there are disadvantages and advantages wherever you go so make the choice that suits you personally.
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    (Original post by The Ace is Back)
    Education = DEVELOPMENT OF CHARACTER/mental powers (look it up in a good dictionary)

    The aim of education is not merely grades and university, but to turn people into well-rounded beings - which is exactly what private schools aim to do, through their generally excellent facilities, teaching quality (yes... spoon-feeding if you like...) and opportunities offered.

    You say earlier on that, basically, because state schools have rubbish teachers and poor facilities, you should send your child to a state school so he/she can learn how to cope and fend for him/herself. Do you think at Oxbridge, or any top university, they have teachers who neither know nor care how to teach? Who are there for the paycheck? Do you think that in a real-life job the learning process is similar to that we are going through now? Do you think that they write syllabus materials for businessmen? If you study hard, you will get into a good university. If you get into a good university and study hard, it will be much easier for you to find a respectable, well-paying job. If you find a respectable, well-paying job, work hard and don't spend your money too extravagantly, you are sorted - end of story.

    I have to say, I am *seriously* surprised that you support the Tories and yet can take this kind of attitude towards private schools.
    Just because I go to a state school doesn't mean I don't know what education is :rolleyes: In fact, it means I know what education is like for the vast majority of students in this country, rather than just the priveleged few, so I certainly don't need a dictionary to look it up.

    As I've said before, it's possible to develop into a well-rounded person by taking advantage of opportunities available to you outside of school, which is better because you'll be meeting new people at the same time rather than being with the people you see day in, day out.

    If you study hard at a state school, you'll get into a good university, and if you study hard at a good univeristy, you'll get a good job but you'll have worked harder and against the odds to get there, so you'll appreciate it more.

    Also as I've said before, I support the Tories because I agree with them on most issues. I don't agree with them on private education, but since there isn't a party who I agree with on everything, they're the best option.
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    let's face it guys, the whole world consists of little bubbles. you are in just as much a bubble if you attend a dilapadated inner-city comp, than if you attend a leafy green dreaming spires elite private school. people attending comps can end up with the view that those with a bit more money than them are snobs, have total disregard for the rest of 'normal' society, and therefore they can never get on with them. those attending the private schools may see things such as teenage murderers and teachers being raped, and fear the state schoolers, as they have no/little contact with them.

    they will all inevitably meet in the big wide world of work/university. no matter which one they go to (because, lets face it, not every privately educated kid will go to a top ten uni)

    saying one or the other is better for preparing you for the real world is crap. you don't know, until you have finished your education, what sort of world you will go into. state schools mean you'll do cannabis. private schools mean you'll do cocaine. the world unfortunately does revolve around money, that isn't going to change quickly.

    therefore the advantages of private/state education should be viewed purely in terms of what they offer immediately to the pupil- if you want the option to learn latin/ancient greek, study classics, take part in a wider variety of team sports etc, then opt for a private education. if the money is out of your reach, if you don't want to be surrounded by people who will inevitably be better off than you and therefore leave you feeling inferior (if you are prone to such complexes, as many children are) then go to a state school. i don't see anything wrong with families sticking their children in private education where the state system fails, in fact, i think it's a wise decision if they can afford it.
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    (Original post by The Ace is Back)
    At comprehensives, you don't have half the opportunities to travel the world half as much and see life *outside* of England. You don't have half as many (filthy rich may I add) foreign students coming there to study, and so have no real contact with non-English people (yeah you might have Blacks, you might have Chinese, you might have Indians, I know - but they are ANGLICISED).

    I'm sorry but I do not understand how you can possibly say there will be such a wide mix of people in comprehensives. They will all be of largely the same background - You will not, for example, have upper-class - but that's ok right, because they are a minority? You will get people of roughly the same social background - a respectable middle class parent wouldn't send his child to school with a bunch of chavs if he could help and vice versa, and you know it. Yeah, there are going to be some from different backgrounds, but even at a school like Eton you get that - have you heard about their Sixth-Form Scholar? They allow a hard-working state school pupil to join in the sixth-form and pay for their uniform as some-one mentioned on another post.

    Private schools are not designed for all irrespective of ability, because they are by their very nature competitive. And what's so wrong in being competitive, or 'elitist' as you would no doubt say. Without competition, people don't get better - in private school there is a constant competitive atmosphere (for example, as I said, the way people are often bullied for being too stupid rather than too clever) and huge expectations, which leads to huge achievements. At state school it doesn't matter what you do, because state schools are by their very nature uncompetitive and un-elitist, and therefore there is no motivation to strive to become great or beat the next person. Life is a struggle, animals and humans are by their very nature competitive to better each other. It's not so un-natural as you might think.
    Not all middle-class parents agree with private education and not all of them see it is a good thing to spend money on, so if they had confidence in the state system and their child, why wouldn't they send them to a comprehensive?

    Students who want to succeed don't need to be pushed by their teachers or motivated by beating others. Their motivation is the fact that their hard work will be rewarded by a place at a good university and a good job.
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    (Original post by The Ace is Back)
    No, but reading the newspaper will tell you a lot more about the *real world*, outside of your world in which only state schools, bad teachers, bullying, drugs and poor facilities seem to exist
    I'm getting really sick of repeating the same thing over and over again to people who never seem to take it in, so I'll try once more: I am perfectly aware that there are other things in the world besides those listed above, and I never said they were the only things that existed. However, I did say that they exist, along with many other negative aspects, and reading a newspaper can never be a substite for first-hand experience. Get it now?
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    wowa 8 pages already!

    (Original post by kellywood_5)
    Not all middle-class parents agree with private education and not all of them see it is a good thing to spend money on, so if they had confidence in the state system and their child, why wouldn't they send them to a comprehensive?

    Students who want to succeed don't need to be pushed by their teachers or motivated by beating others. Their motivation is the fact that their hard work will be rewarded by a place at a good university and a good job.
    this is the only post I've read since about page 5, so if I've taken it out of context.

    What about the middle class people who are nonplussed by the whole issue of state/private but have "stupid" (ie not achieving good / top grades) children in state schools, due to perhaps learning difficulties like dyslexia?
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    (Original post by kellywood_5)
    As I've said before, it's possible to develop into a well-rounded person by taking advantage of opportunities available to you outside of school, which is better because you'll be meeting new people at the same time rather than being with the people you see day in, day out.
    Schools provide Education
    Education = development of character as well as mental powers

    ==> A school should aim to provide as rounded an education as possible, which is what private schools are in a better position to do. Of course the state system has advantages, after all it is free and so easily accessible to all, and yes you can yourself provide just as rounded an education for your kids by enrolling them in art classes or whatever outside of school time and no, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with going to state school, but if you have the money to comfortably afford it, I cannot see why you are still arguing you'd rather send your kid to a state school anyday over a private school, even though there are so many more advantages to private schools in comparison with state schools. Again services - the more you pay, the better you get.

    I have a feeling that a lot of the time you don't get the points I'm trying to make..
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    (Original post by kellywood_5)
    I'm getting really sick of repeating the same thing over and over again to people who never seem to take it in, so I'll try once more: I am perfectly aware that there are other things in the world besides those listed above, and I never said they were the only things that existed. However, I did say that they exist, along with many other negative aspects, and reading a newspaper can never be a substite for first-hand experience. Get it now?
    Have you spoken to Tony Blair? No but you read about what he says and believes in a newspaper right?

    You were saying to objectivism that he/any private school pupils has/have no first-hand account of what state schools are like and therefore reading the newspaper was no substitute for the 'real thing'. This then suggests that you think the only real thing to experience is the bad conditions in some state schools, and in parts of England. My point is that there are other things to news than just that. And of course other things exist in your world, I was exaggerating.. I don't really think your world consists solely of state schools, bullying, drugs and bad teaching (or does it?)

    Maybe you are sick of repeating the same thing over and over, but that doesn't make you right
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    (Original post by smeets)
    What about the middle class people who are nonplussed by the whole issue of state/private but have "stupid" (ie not achieving good / top grades) children in state schools, due to perhaps learning difficulties like dyslexia?
    That's when it becomes more difficult. I've been arguing so far that if a child works hard and is intelligent, there's no point sending them to a private school because they can do just as well in a state school, but if there are specical circumstances, such as a learning difficulty that state schools can't provide for, of course private school may need to be considered.
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    (Original post by The Ace is Back)
    Schools provide Education
    Education = development of character as well as mental powers

    ==> A school should aim to provide as rounded an education as possible, which is what private schools are in a better position to do. Of course the state system has advantages, after all it is free and so easily accessible to all, and yes you can yourself provide just as rounded an education for your kids by enrolling them in art classes or whatever outside of school time and no, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with going to state school, but if you have the money to comfortably afford it, I cannot see why you are still arguing you'd rather send your kid to a state school anyday over a private school, even though there are so many more advantages to private schools in comparison with state schools. Again services - the more you pay, the better you get.

    I have a feeling that a lot of the time you don't get the points I'm trying to make..
    I do get them, I just don't agree with them, but that's fine, that's what debates are all about.
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    (Original post by The Ace is Back)
    Have you spoken to Tony Blair? No but you read about what he says and believes in a newspaper right?

    You were saying to objectivism that he/any private school pupils has/have no first-hand account of what state schools are like and therefore reading the newspaper was no substitute for the 'real thing'. This then suggests that you think the only real thing to experience is the bad conditions in some state schools, and in parts of England. My point is that there are other things to news than just that. And of course other things exist in your world, I was exaggerating.. I don't really think your world consists solely of state schools, bullying, drugs and bad teaching (or does it?)

    Maybe you are sick of repeating the same thing over and over, but that doesn't make you right
    No, it doesn't. Well, it does consist of state schools, and it did consist of bullying before sixth form. I guess you could say it consists of drugs since I know a fair few people that take them, and as for bad teaching, that isn't such an issue now as it was as KS3.

    I know it doesn't make me right, it just seems like we're going round a circle sometimes.
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    stereotypes are invalid.

    i go to a normal state school, and a fair few of my friends have swimming pools and hot tubs, live on estates with electric gated entrances and/or go hunting of a weekend.

    meeting a hard drug addict at a state school is about as likely as meeting one in a public school (I should know).
 
 
 

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