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Oxbridge MUST start selling places
Compared to its competitors, Oxbridge colleges are skint. First rate minds are constantly being lost both to the City, or other sources of well paid jobs and, even worse, the very universities with which it is competing. One of the main reasons for this is that those unis basically sell places, through legacy policies.
Oxford must follow suit if it is to stop its decline relative to the likes of Harvard and Yale. At present, if a multi-millionaire is willing to donate £100,000 for a place for his son, he'd get turned down virtually everywhere. This is nuts! That's enough money to retain a don for a decade. It is lowering academic standards to be so inflexible. The madness must stop!
Also, I reckons guest room should start getting rented out for loads. Our guest rooms go at £10ish a night. That's not even close to commercial rates, when the product on offer, being actually inside a college, is infinitely better, and could go for 100's a night.
Oxford must follow suit if it is to stop its decline relative to the likes of Harvard and Yale. At present, if a multi-millionaire is willing to donate £100,000 for a place for his son, he'd get turned down virtually everywhere. This is nuts! That's enough money to retain a don for a decade. It is lowering academic standards to be so inflexible. The madness must stop!
Also, I reckons guest room should start getting rented out for loads. Our guest rooms go at £10ish a night. That's not even close to commercial rates, when the product on offer, being actually inside a college, is infinitely better, and could go for 100's a night.
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No you shouldnt start selling places, rather we need to encourage outside donations from past alumni. Currently ex-students get hassled far too much for their money, I think there must be a better way to get donations off these people. Perhaps the colleges should offer perks to existing students in exchange for a contract stating that once they are earning a certain amount of money, they will give a certain amount as a donation to the college. In return, the college will give discounts on stuff perhaps! Kind of a like a College Student Loan in a way.
The idea of Oxford going private (like the Ivy League) is an interesting one, for it potentially could mean that those who have little money would be able to receive lots more money, i.e. the rich pay more, the poor pay less!
I don't see what's wrong with hassleing alumini for their money, it's what happens in the US, and its considered quite normal to donate money once you're in a stable job or to leave it in your will.
Maybe people in the UK feel less affiliation to their University after they have left, or maybe because they are paid for mainly through taxes they see them as public institutions so dont feel they need funding, i dont know...
Maybe people in the UK feel less affiliation to their University after they have left, or maybe because they are paid for mainly through taxes they see them as public institutions so dont feel they need funding, i dont know...
I'm afraid I don't understand Willa's comments - UK unis are poor at getting out the begging bowl compared with american unis, and as an ex-student I've never been asked let alone hassled for donations.
In my dept I don't see many lecturers heading for other unis or abroad but the dept has a good rep. Some head for the city very occasionally. Wage is not a gripe I hear from many.
But at the mo, in the country as a whole, uni is pretty much a middle-class affair - the debt involved getting a uni degree is breathtaking to many a poorer family - and some way or another the system needs to be more representative and meritocratic. Though I'm not convinced going private would solve these things.
In my dept I don't see many lecturers heading for other unis or abroad but the dept has a good rep. Some head for the city very occasionally. Wage is not a gripe I hear from many.
But at the mo, in the country as a whole, uni is pretty much a middle-class affair - the debt involved getting a uni degree is breathtaking to many a poorer family - and some way or another the system needs to be more representative and meritocratic. Though I'm not convinced going private would solve these things.
H&E
Oxford must follow suit if it is to stop its decline relative to the likes of Harvard and Yale. At present, if a multi-millionaire is willing to donate £100,000 for a place for his son, he'd get turned down virtually everywhere. This is nuts! That's enough money to retain a don for a decade. It is lowering academic standards to be so inflexible. The madness must stop!
Oxford must follow suit if it is to stop its decline relative to the likes of Harvard and Yale. At present, if a multi-millionaire is willing to donate £100,000 for a place for his son, he'd get turned down virtually everywhere. This is nuts! That's enough money to retain a don for a decade. It is lowering academic standards to be so inflexible. The madness must stop!
Do remember the furore at Pembroke some years ago?
You could say that Oxbridge might could use legacy donations to increase the number of scholarship places and both parties win. But as far as I can tell Oxbridge places aren't constrained by money?
Well, Oxbridge makes a significant loss on every undergraduate student it takes...
I can imagine, but I just don't get the impression my college is thinking "ohhh we could take more students if only we had more money!"
Would it be a good thing if Oxbridge doubled their undergraduate populations?
Would it be a good thing if Oxbridge doubled their undergraduate populations?
Well I don't know about Oxford but Cambridge are currently building two more colleges, aren't they? So I assume they will be increasing numbers somewhat.
As to money, they won't be thinking that, they'll be thinking ohhh we could be a better university to the students we have if only we had more money.
As to money, they won't be thinking that, they'll be thinking ohhh we could be a better university to the students we have if only we had more money.
Well - it's a problem - I mean that whole shebang about Cambridge Architecture was caused because research brings in the majority of money... and they couldn't get any.
I went to a private school, which my parents didn't have much problem paying for, and they're paying my way through Uni... but Uni is going to be about £4k per annum less than my non-residential Minor Public School. They could afford to pay more, and they're not wealthy compared to many parents of Oxbridge children, so, oddly for an upper-middle class chap - yes I should be paying more next year.
I went to a private school, which my parents didn't have much problem paying for, and they're paying my way through Uni... but Uni is going to be about £4k per annum less than my non-residential Minor Public School. They could afford to pay more, and they're not wealthy compared to many parents of Oxbridge children, so, oddly for an upper-middle class chap - yes I should be paying more next year.
RichE
I'm afraid I don't understand Willa's comments - UK unis are poor at getting out the begging bowl compared with american unis, and as an ex-student I've never been asked let alone hassled for donations.
clearly this is something from my own experiences! (I've been roped in to "hassling" ex students for money already)
My college (Robinson) has been sending letters to my 14 year old brother asking for donations.
I assume it's some kind of administrative error since my parents haven't been getting any begging letters but it's still a bit weird. Robinson also went on a campaign calling up parents and asking for money this summer, although the only people I've discussed it with both relented so I don't know if they bug you until you give in.
I assume it's some kind of administrative error since my parents haven't been getting any begging letters but it's still a bit weird. Robinson also went on a campaign calling up parents and asking for money this summer, although the only people I've discussed it with both relented so I don't know if they bug you until you give in.
I can understand the rationale behing H&E's suggestion, but as usual, although I don't think we have wildly different political philosophies, I will of course disagree!
The point that the universities are underfunded in comparison with the States is a fair one, however, to my mind at least, one of the best things about Oxbridge lies exactly in this distinction: Oxbridge is an academic institution, and only that, it selects students purely on the basis of academic merit and potential. This is the argument the university uses time and time when trying to defend the cultural biases inherent in its student body, and to resist interference from London and the imposition of a quota system. If Oxbridge reneges on this principle to benefit rich people, it would have a very hard time defending itself against the quota system etc, to say nothing about the public outcry and bad press which i think we can all agree are the last things the ivory towers need! The idea, although interesting, is practically and politically impossible, and although some people may agree with it, there will be far too many opponents of such a step for it ever to be fully implemented.
However, there is another very obvious solution to this dilemma: raise tuition fees! At present the aforementioned rich kid* only pays at the most 17% of his education. Why not make those with incomes over 150,000 pay the full shebang, those with 149,999-85,000 pay 60%, etc etc., leaving probably substantially more money at the government's/universities' disposal. Obviously not a very popular idea among middle class families and students, who deserted Labour in droves at the last election (e.g. Cambridge, Bristol West, etc.), so perhaps not a political probability for a while. We shouldn't however, that the vast majority only protest vote once on the same issue.
* Isn't it telling that in all the hypotheticals, everyone assumes the rich kid had a rich dad?
The point that the universities are underfunded in comparison with the States is a fair one, however, to my mind at least, one of the best things about Oxbridge lies exactly in this distinction: Oxbridge is an academic institution, and only that, it selects students purely on the basis of academic merit and potential. This is the argument the university uses time and time when trying to defend the cultural biases inherent in its student body, and to resist interference from London and the imposition of a quota system. If Oxbridge reneges on this principle to benefit rich people, it would have a very hard time defending itself against the quota system etc, to say nothing about the public outcry and bad press which i think we can all agree are the last things the ivory towers need! The idea, although interesting, is practically and politically impossible, and although some people may agree with it, there will be far too many opponents of such a step for it ever to be fully implemented.
However, there is another very obvious solution to this dilemma: raise tuition fees! At present the aforementioned rich kid* only pays at the most 17% of his education. Why not make those with incomes over 150,000 pay the full shebang, those with 149,999-85,000 pay 60%, etc etc., leaving probably substantially more money at the government's/universities' disposal. Obviously not a very popular idea among middle class families and students, who deserted Labour in droves at the last election (e.g. Cambridge, Bristol West, etc.), so perhaps not a political probability for a while. We shouldn't however, that the vast majority only protest vote once on the same issue.
* Isn't it telling that in all the hypotheticals, everyone assumes the rich kid had a rich dad?
i think students should have to pay more of the cost of their course, so that those who can't can recieve far more generous bursuries, and the university can avoid closing down unpopular departments (eg chinese, chemistry) that are vital. offering places to the highest bidder is unfair, because then education would just be for the super rich.
leavemealone
Well, Oxbridge makes a significant loss on every undergraduate student it takes...
Well I'm not sure that it's significant, but frankly so what really, because the first perogative of a university should be to educate students. The uni has all sorts of other ways to make money with conferences and most colleges have decent endowments and/or can run appeals. So I think the uni should be taking as many good students as it's able to take and teach. Cost is obviously an issue for any institution, and a big one today in research, but the uni's duty is first and foremost education.
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