Attacks on Muslims have soared in London since the 7 July bombings Watch

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Vienna
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Tonight Matthew)
Are these statistics from the same survey which show that 86% of Muslims disagree that it is acceptable for religious or political groups to use violence for political ends?
That depends on who would define Allah's will as a political end. Just as condemnation of terrorism against innocent civilians doesnt actually extend to the Jews for some.
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Alexdel
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#42
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#42
(Original post by ramroff)
if 32% of them don't like the culture then why bother immigrating? surely it's better to move to somewhere where you agree with the cultural norms and customs.
How does that work exactly if you emmigrated here 50 years ago and you have grandkids or kids born here? Would you ask the same to a white British person who would say that 'western society is decadent and it needs to be changed'? No you wouldn't....
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Tonight Matthew
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#43
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#43
(Original post by Vienna)
That depends on who would define Allah's will as a political end. Just as condemnation of terrorism against innocent civilians doesnt actually extend to the Jews for some.
Yes, such ambiguities (amongst other factors) do make statistics somewhat dodgy when trying to make an argument, which is the point I was actually making about your original post.
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j4mes_bond25
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#44
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#44
(Original post by Vienna)
Whats peace loving about beating your wife?
Well, who knows the wife COULD've been enjoying being beaten, after all, Masochism has it's own pleasure, you see
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Vienna
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#45
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(Original post by Tonight Matthew)
Yes, such ambiguities (amongst other factors) do make statistics somewhat dodgy when trying to make an argument, which is the point I was actually making about your original post.
Any statistic in particular?

Lets have a look at some comments then...

"If they don't like our way of life, there is a simple remedy: go to another country, get out," Mr Howarth said. Asked what if these people were born in Britain, he replied: "Tough. If you don't give allegiance to this country, then leave."

He added: "There are plenty of other countries whose way of life would appear to be more conducive to what they aspire to. They would be happy and we would be happy."

This was the overwhelming view of people he spoke to, the Tory MP for Aldershot added.

Mr Howarth compared those who despised British values to the traitors who spied for Russia. The shadow defence minister also criticised his colleague, Dominic Grieve, the shadow attorney general, who suggested the suicide bombings were "explicable" by the anger many British Muslims felt over the war and the state of Islam.

Mr Howarth stressed that the majority of Muslims did adhere to British values and described how the Union Flag had been flown at a meeting he had with Muslims over the weekend. However, his remarks were condemned as "arrogant" and "naive" by the Muslim Association of Britain.

Its spokesman, Anas Altikriti, compared the Tory defence spokesman to those who carried out the attacks on London, saying: "They bombed in order to eliminate people, while he is proposing to eliminate people by deporting them."

He also questioned to which country Mr Howarth proposed Muslims should go, as there were no Muslim countries as such, just Muslim people.


So the so-called moderate Muslim Council of Britain denounce his comments, distort them, compare him to a suicide bomber and then pretend that there are no Islamic states or countries that promote Sharia law on the face of this planet. The MCB does not believe that a complete disregard for Britain is a good enough reason to leave the country? Britons who agree with Mr.Howarth, I would assume a great many, are arrogant and no better than suicide bombers? The fact that the government sounds more like the MCB than Mr.Howarth and the rest of the population is of great concern.
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Vienna
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#46
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#46
(Original post by Alexdel)
How does that work exactly if you emmigrated here 50 years ago and you have grandkids or kids born here? Would you ask the same to a white British person who would say that 'western society is decadent and it needs to be changed'? No you wouldn't....
32% of the 'white' (since when were Muslims a race?) population believe that Western culture should be brought to an end?
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Alexdel
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#47
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#47
(Original post by Vienna)
Any statistic in particular?

Lets have a look at some comments then...

"If they don't like our way of life, there is a simple remedy: go to another country, get out," Mr Howarth said. Asked what if these people were born in Britain, he replied: "Tough. If you don't give allegiance to this country, then leave."

He added: "There are plenty of other countries whose way of life would appear to be more conducive to what they aspire to. They would be happy and we would be happy."

This was the overwhelming view of people he spoke to, the Tory MP for Aldershot added.

Mr Howarth compared those who despised British values to the traitors who spied for Russia. The shadow defence minister also criticised his colleague, Dominic Grieve, the shadow attorney general, who suggested the suicide bombings were "explicable" by the anger many British Muslims felt over the war and the state of Islam.

Mr Howarth stressed that the majority of Muslims did adhere to British values and described how the Union Flag had been flown at a meeting he had with Muslims over the weekend. However, his remarks were condemned as "arrogant" and "naive" by the Muslim Association of Britain.

Its spokesman, Anas Altikriti, compared the Tory defence spokesman to those who carried out the attacks on London, saying: "They bombed in order to eliminate people, while he is proposing to eliminate people by deporting them."

He also questioned to which country Mr Howarth proposed Muslims should go, as there were no Muslim countries as such, just Muslim people.


So the so-called moderate Muslim Council of Britain denounce his comments, distort them, compare him to a suicide bomber and then pretend that there are no Islamic states or countries that promote Sharia law on the face of this planet. The MCB does not believe that a complete disregard for Britain is a good enough reason to leave the country? Britons who agree with Mr.Howarth, I would assume a great many, are arrogant and no better than suicide bombers? The fact that the government sounds more like the MCB than Mr.Howarth and the rest of the population is of great concern.
Well we all bow down to Mr.Howarth's great intellect and wisdom...I couldn't care less what a MP, trying to gain popularity with his populist views, has to say...
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Alexdel
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#48
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#48
(Original post by Vienna)
32% of the 'white' (since when were Muslims a race?) population believe that Western culture should be brought to an end?
Yes that's what I said :rolleyes: ...dont bother with these comments anymore...I'm not here to teach you the art of reading...

Do something for a change and put down the whole statement when you are quoting something (yougov poll). Don't try and spin it so that it adheres to your own views.
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Howard
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#49
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#49
(Original post by Beekeeper)
Indeed, but such acts of racist violence should never be tolerated.
They're not being tolerated are they? Or has the government granted an amnesty on beating up ethnic minorities?
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Scheherazade
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#50
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#50
(Original post by Vienna)
A majority of Muslims dont actually find the extremists extreme. 32% believe that the West is immoral and its culture should be brought to an end. Almost half would consider becoming a Palestinian suicide bomber. A quarter sympathise with the London bombers. A majority can understand the London bombers. 20% feels no loyalty to Britain, 12% consider themselves British.
How were the questions asked though? If you asked most religious people whether they didn't like aspects of western culture they'd say yes, but those aspects probably don't have anything to do with democracy so much as the high divorce rates, drugs, and binge drinking etc.

I have talked to my parents about this, and while most muslims do think that the extremists have an actual philosophy they sympathise with, no-one actually agrees with what they do.

The Palestine issue is complex, but most muslims do sympathise with palestine suicide bombers, simply because they don't consider Israel to be a legitimate country and since it's seen as an invasion and the palestinians have no actual army or other way to fight back people are much more sympathetic than they would otherwise be, it's not simply a case of jewish lives being less valuable than others in some way. The leaders of the groups that make suicide bombers as it were, aren't looked on so favourably, they basically use these predominantly young peoples grief as a weapon and don't seem so willing to sacrifice themselves.

And as for considering yourself British, I don't really consider myself British, but I'm not a danger to anyone.

NB: While I don't see Israel as a legitimate country, most of the population were born after 1948, so it is their home. I'd support a two-state solution, I'd prefer a one-state solution, but there's too much water under the bridge for that.

And no, I don't hate Jewish people.
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Alexdel
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#51
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#51
Reading the questions asked you will notice how biased they are. For example in that particular section in which it says 'Which of these statement comes closer to what you feel' every option given states that there is something wrong with western culture. There is for example no option saying 'I believe there is nothing wrong with the western culture and I don't seek to bring it to an end' The way they have been worded and the options given it's quite worrying that these are actually 'respected' statistics...
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Tonight Matthew
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#52
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#52
(Original post by Vienna)
Any statistic in particular?
Still waiting for a source on all of them.
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bluenoxid
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#53
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#53
(Original post by Vienna)
32% of the 'white' (since when were Muslims a race?) population believe that Western culture should be brought to an end?
...In a survey done in Anarchist Weekly
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Weejimmie
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#54
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#54
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...3/ixportal.htm
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Vienna
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#55
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(Original post by ayaan)
How were the questions asked though? If you asked most religious people whether they didn't like aspects of western culture they'd say yes, but those aspects probably don't have anything to do with democracy so much as the high divorce rates, drugs, and binge drinking etc.
I think most people could find fault, but wouldnt want to wipe an entire culture out.

I have talked to my parents about this, and while most muslims do think that the extremists have an actual philosophy they sympathise with, no-one actually agrees with what they do.
So you dont agree with suicide bombing, you just understand why they do it?

The Palestine issue is complex, but most muslims do sympathise with palestine suicide bombers, simply because they don't consider Israel to be a legitimate country and since it's seen as an invasion and the palestinians have no actual army or other way to fight back people are much more sympathetic than they would otherwise be, it's not simply a case of jewish lives being less valuable than others in some way.
So the Muslim attitude towards Palestine has nothing to do with the Koran's advice in regard to Jews?

And as for considering yourself British, I don't really consider myself British, but I'm not a danger to anyone.
Do you have a British passport and are you claiming benefit from the pockets of the members on this forum, if not their parents?

NB: While I don't see Israel as a legitimate country, most of the population were born after 1948, so it is their home. I'd support a two-state solution, I'd prefer a one-state solution, but there's too much water under the bridge for that.

And no, I don't hate Jewish people.
You just dont believe they have any right to a homeland.
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Vienna
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#56
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#56
(Original post by Tonight Matthew)
Still waiting for a source on all of them.
Keep waiting, substantiation is now irrelevant.
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thebucketwoman
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#57
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#57
(Original post by Howard)
They're not being tolerated are they? Or has the government granted an amnesty on beating up ethnic minorities?
No, but the comments posted by some would suggest that Muslims deserve this abuse.
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thebucketwoman
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#58
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#58
(Original post by Tonight Matthew)
Still waiting for a source on all of them.
Vienna is quoting this:

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...391671,00.html

I think the most important part of the article is at the bottom, however.

Communicate Research interviewed 462 UK-based Muslims by phone...

462! There are more than 1 million Muslims in London alone, and nearly 2 million in the UK!! Hardly a conclusive sample...
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Scheherazade
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#59
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#59
(Original post by Vienna)
I think most people could find fault, but wouldnt want to wipe an entire culture out.
I think it means whipe out the unpleasant aspects of the culture, if you want to find a problem here, it's that the more unpleasant aspects are the first to come to mind.

(Original post by Vienna)
So you dont agree with suicide bombing, you just understand why they do it?
Yes.

(Original post by Vienna)
So the Muslim attitude towards Palestine has nothing to do with the Koran's advice in regard to Jews?
What advice in particular?

(Original post by Vienna)
Do you have a British passport and are you claiming benefit from the pockets of the members on this forum, if not their parents?
Well I just applied for a passport and yes, it would be British, and my parents used to get child benefit for me, when I was a child.

(Original post by Vienna)
You just dont believe they have any right to a homeland.
That's not true, I do, very much so, I just don't see why it had to taken from other people. The only reason they required a homeland as I remember it was because they weren't welcome in Europe.
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Vienna
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#60
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#60
(Original post by ayaan)
Well I just applied for a passport and yes, it would be British, and my parents used to get child benefit for me, when I was a child.
Will you consider yourself British when the passport arrives in the post?

That's not true, I do, very much so, I just don't see why it had to taken from other people.
How does that make it illegitimate?
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