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Another delightful Oxbridge/American Universities debate
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Agreed - I have deep suspicions about 'girl', let alone 'pretty'.
grumballcake
Agreed - I have deep suspicions about 'girl', let alone 'pretty'.
Bin dan. I hope you understand that grumball.
But no I have had periods, so I best not be a male bleeding unknowingly from what appears to be a vagina. (Have my balls not dropped yet?)
Or else that would be bad
I can't help if it I'm a petite, pretty girl with a best friend who's male.
SlyPie
Bin dan. I hope you understand that grumball.
But no I have had periods, so I best not be a male bleeding unknowingly from what appears to be a vagina. (Have my balls not dropped yet?)
Or else that would be bad
I can't help if it I'm a petite, pretty girl with a best friend who's male.
But no I have had periods, so I best not be a male bleeding unknowingly from what appears to be a vagina. (Have my balls not dropped yet?)
Or else that would be bad
I can't help if it I'm a petite, pretty girl with a best friend who's male.
You never know. You might be haemorrhaging and there's a possibility that the vagina might just be a foetal remnant from this rare genetic disorder. Pseudohermaphrotidism.
Anyone read Jeffery Eugenides?
A large part of this thread seems to be discussing extracurriculars and their importance in the application process. I just wanted to point out that, although extracurriculars don't have the same impact on an application to a UK university than they do to a US application, that doesn't mean we don't do extracurriculars.
It appears that the original poster is under the impression that UK students spend all of their time studying and not doing much else, but this is simply not true. For example, a friend of mine who'll probably be studying at Cambridge in September not only took four A-Levels, but plays saxophone, is in various orchestras and choirs, chairs the school debate club, was head girl and part of the Fair Trade club!
It appears that the original poster is under the impression that UK students spend all of their time studying and not doing much else, but this is simply not true. For example, a friend of mine who'll probably be studying at Cambridge in September not only took four A-Levels, but plays saxophone, is in various orchestras and choirs, chairs the school debate club, was head girl and part of the Fair Trade club!
Can I just point out that this thread was very amusing until I realised that "FA" didn't actually stand for "F**k all".
Good one 
.
Another point is that - the academic skill and ability nurtured and emphasised by Oxbridge are valued by employers not because they are purely "academic", but because they show flexibility of thought, quick-thinking, passion and motivation. Working at Oxbridge often requires team-work (at least if every undergrad is to stay sane in that situation). There is no reason to say that someone who graduated from Oxbridge is a "bookworm" - far from it. A degree from Oxbridge could be equivalent to those from HYP in the sense that it provides transferable skills, extremely valuable to an employer, and crucial for self development. On top of this, one has evidence of intellectual ability; forming lines of incisive argument, absorbing large amounts of information at the same time et al..
I don't see why we're making such a strong distinction between the skills gained from extracurricular activities and the skills gained from academic learning in an institution such as Oxbridge. Pure book-learning, I don't think, or memorising facts and details alone, would not get you anywhere in Oxbridge (at least not going by the admissions interviews I had in November 2004). The reason why Oxbridge and indeed HYP grads are valued is because of their ability to deal with "real-life" situations, applying what they have learnt from the past.
Nevertheless, going by what SlyPie has told us - we get the impression of a sluggish Oxford and Cambridge where everyone is too busy burying their heads in books to do anything else. Far from this, I am aware of an Oxbridge that is entirely different; Oxford with its remarkable political background for example, when I went to visit both universities I was struck by the activity and energy of the students there; and there is plenty to do at Oxbridge. I'm afraid to say they don't seem like universities full of "bookworms". The charity work undergrads at both unis do is admirable, the opportunities for sporting is diverse (more diverse I would say than most other UK universities) due to the college system. And I'm glad to say that most students who go there take advantage of the funding that sporting, drama, music et al offer as well as achieving academic excellence.
As for Oxbridge being dominated by the class-system, I have to laugh. If there have been 2 universities that have strived to increase access for ethnic minorities and the working class, but without decreasing quality of students - it's been those two. Ever heard of GEEMA? The Access Scheme? (Cambridge - don't know much about Oxford) I suggest you look into them. The government itself ensures that tuition fees are as low as they possibly can be, and gives us interest-free loans for the duration of our time as undergraduates at university. On top of that - one can acquire more of an interest free loan if income-assessed, and both universities (Ox/Cam) give grants on top of this. Assistance for disabled students from government is incredible; I went for a Disabled Student's Assessment yesterday; the assessment itself cost £440, I was assured a personal notetaker for which there was a budget of £11,000 p/year per person, and allowed £200 for extra "needies" such as photocopying/more books/essentials. Such financial assistance is given regardless of what university one attends - not merely limited to the "top 10 strata" of UK league tables. How could you possibly say in the face of all of this that Britain is dominated by an aristocratic system?! If anything, it does all it can to ensure that race, disability, class, wealth or any other arbitrary factor plays little part in the way one is educated. The monarchy is still in place predominantly for tourism and the maintenance of tradition; it means very little politically or socially. Gone are the times when our princes could go to Oxford or Cambridge on very little merit, and we'd just stand by and watch. Whilst Britain is not perfect; there is a private and state sector and the debate about the two rages on, as the quality of teaching differs massively - for you as an American to call it "class-dominated" seems to me, the pot calling the kettle black, especially when from a country so "wealth-dominated".
.Another point is that - the academic skill and ability nurtured and emphasised by Oxbridge are valued by employers not because they are purely "academic", but because they show flexibility of thought, quick-thinking, passion and motivation. Working at Oxbridge often requires team-work (at least if every undergrad is to stay sane in that situation). There is no reason to say that someone who graduated from Oxbridge is a "bookworm" - far from it. A degree from Oxbridge could be equivalent to those from HYP in the sense that it provides transferable skills, extremely valuable to an employer, and crucial for self development. On top of this, one has evidence of intellectual ability; forming lines of incisive argument, absorbing large amounts of information at the same time et al..
I don't see why we're making such a strong distinction between the skills gained from extracurricular activities and the skills gained from academic learning in an institution such as Oxbridge. Pure book-learning, I don't think, or memorising facts and details alone, would not get you anywhere in Oxbridge (at least not going by the admissions interviews I had in November 2004). The reason why Oxbridge and indeed HYP grads are valued is because of their ability to deal with "real-life" situations, applying what they have learnt from the past.
Nevertheless, going by what SlyPie has told us - we get the impression of a sluggish Oxford and Cambridge where everyone is too busy burying their heads in books to do anything else. Far from this, I am aware of an Oxbridge that is entirely different; Oxford with its remarkable political background for example, when I went to visit both universities I was struck by the activity and energy of the students there; and there is plenty to do at Oxbridge. I'm afraid to say they don't seem like universities full of "bookworms". The charity work undergrads at both unis do is admirable, the opportunities for sporting is diverse (more diverse I would say than most other UK universities) due to the college system. And I'm glad to say that most students who go there take advantage of the funding that sporting, drama, music et al offer as well as achieving academic excellence.
As for Oxbridge being dominated by the class-system, I have to laugh. If there have been 2 universities that have strived to increase access for ethnic minorities and the working class, but without decreasing quality of students - it's been those two. Ever heard of GEEMA? The Access Scheme? (Cambridge - don't know much about Oxford) I suggest you look into them. The government itself ensures that tuition fees are as low as they possibly can be, and gives us interest-free loans for the duration of our time as undergraduates at university. On top of that - one can acquire more of an interest free loan if income-assessed, and both universities (Ox/Cam) give grants on top of this. Assistance for disabled students from government is incredible; I went for a Disabled Student's Assessment yesterday; the assessment itself cost £440, I was assured a personal notetaker for which there was a budget of £11,000 p/year per person, and allowed £200 for extra "needies" such as photocopying/more books/essentials. Such financial assistance is given regardless of what university one attends - not merely limited to the "top 10 strata" of UK league tables. How could you possibly say in the face of all of this that Britain is dominated by an aristocratic system?! If anything, it does all it can to ensure that race, disability, class, wealth or any other arbitrary factor plays little part in the way one is educated. The monarchy is still in place predominantly for tourism and the maintenance of tradition; it means very little politically or socially. Gone are the times when our princes could go to Oxford or Cambridge on very little merit, and we'd just stand by and watch. Whilst Britain is not perfect; there is a private and state sector and the debate about the two rages on, as the quality of teaching differs massively - for you as an American to call it "class-dominated" seems to me, the pot calling the kettle black, especially when from a country so "wealth-dominated".
for you as an American to call it "class-dominated" seems to me, the pot calling the kettle black, especially when from a country so "wealth-dominated".
I agree!!!!!!
grumballcake
Are there people who really believe this nonsense any more? All the real-world evidence is that cutting taxes improves the lot of the poor. Social engineering by redistribution simply doesn't work. Surely that's now obvious after the fiascos of the 20th Century.
Yet all the real-world evidence is that this causes greater social displocation and increased crime rates. So it's a 'development' certainly, just not a welcome one.
I'm almost at a loss for words for how many errors you've managed to fit into a single sentence. How you can derive your conclusions from the facts is a mystery lost in left-wing unthinking rhetoric.
Yet all the real-world evidence is that this causes greater social displocation and increased crime rates. So it's a 'development' certainly, just not a welcome one.
I'm almost at a loss for words for how many errors you've managed to fit into a single sentence. How you can derive your conclusions from the facts is a mystery lost in left-wing unthinking rhetoric.
Sounds like a post sponsored by the Heritage Foundation - providing a decent safety net for the unemployed, rather than rediculous 'right to work' systems which segregate the unfortunate from the fortunate is hardly left wing rhetoric.
Greater tax cuts for the poor is social engineering is it? Perhaps you should advocate a flat rate of tax, because surely progressive taxation is social engineering too?
Get real.Education isn't blooming free... you have a loan until you're about 30! Also, the city I live in has such bad state schools you have to go private - i'm not joking, worst in the country. Incidentely, ppl i know in the US who go to uni have enough money to pay that amount per year. Or they get a loan ... the same as in england.
SlyPie
Of course I definitely prefer America to other countries in the world, including yours. The CLASS system there appalls me; not to mention education is practically free yet so many Brits don't attend college/university. And you guys complain about YOUR fees when in America many pay $40,000/per year.
Of course I definitely prefer America to other countries in the world, including yours. The CLASS system there appalls me; not to mention education is practically free yet so many Brits don't attend college/university. And you guys complain about YOUR fees when in America many pay $40,000/per year.
Considering that you have never lived in this country - you have had no experience of the so-called "class system"; I can say that belonging to an ethnic minority and being disabled, my advancement in this country has not been hindered.I don't see why it should be different from someone belonging to the supposed "working-class". Since the topic is about Oxbridge/American Unis anyway - I don't really see the relevance of your point. As for education being "practically free yet so many Brits don't attend college/university" - if you think every single person's mind works in an academic way, that's exceptionally simplistic. Just because someone has the opportunity to gain A-Levels or a degree, that doesn't automatically mean that's the only way, or that they SHOULD or MUST choose it. And personally I know which country I would choose. One with (apparently) a "class system" but with entirely free education over a "wealth system", whereby as you yourself admit - many pay $40,000 a year.
As for us complaining about fees, that is simply a representation of the distinct difference in attitudes towards education; widening access etc - thus appreciating that class is no longer a relevant factor - in contrast to the American approach where distinction on the basis of wealth (which often translates into class) is tolerated. And although you may make the distinction between Paris Hilton and an "educated, smart young person" class-wise - only those who have the money, apparently stand much of a chance of being that "educated person" at HYP.
Sure, loans are interest free for students, but you can't have them for life - you have to start paying them off once you're earning £15000 a year, and in lots of cases, having been at uni will get you a job with that much money within a few years. I was thinking of applying to the US, but to be honest the fees are just a joke! I thought England was expensive!
Dear TSR people,
Please do not let Sly(aka Stereoptypical Ugly American w/inferiority complex) color/colour you view of Americans. Even here in Texas, people have a great deal of respect for Britain and her glorious past and present civilization. Sorry that people like Sly can create so much animosity between two cultures.
Please do not let Sly(aka Stereoptypical Ugly American w/inferiority complex) color/colour you view of Americans. Even here in Texas, people have a great deal of respect for Britain and her glorious past and present civilization. Sorry that people like Sly can create so much animosity between two cultures.
Reema
Considering that you have never lived in this country - you have had no experience of the so-called "class system"; I can say that belonging to an ethnic minority and being disabled, my advancement in this country has not been hindered.I don't see why it should be different from someone belonging to the supposed "working-class". Since the topic is about Oxbridge/American Unis anyway - I don't really see the relevance of your point. As for education being "practically free yet so many Brits don't attend college/university" - if you think every single person's mind works in an academic way, that's exceptionally simplistic. Just because someone has the opportunity to gain A-Levels or a degree, that doesn't automatically mean that's the only way, or that they SHOULD or MUST choose it. And personally I know which country I would choose. One with (apparently) a "class system" but with entirely free education over a "wealth system", whereby as you yourself admit - many pay $40,000 a year.
As for us complaining about fees, that is simply a representation of the distinct difference in attitudes towards education; widening access etc - thus appreciating that class is no longer a relevant factor - in contrast to the American approach where distinction on the basis of wealth (which often translates into class) is tolerated. And although you may make the distinction between Paris Hilton and an "educated, smart young person" class-wise - only those who have the money, apparently stand much of a chance of being that "educated person" at HYP.
As for us complaining about fees, that is simply a representation of the distinct difference in attitudes towards education; widening access etc - thus appreciating that class is no longer a relevant factor - in contrast to the American approach where distinction on the basis of wealth (which often translates into class) is tolerated. And although you may make the distinction between Paris Hilton and an "educated, smart young person" class-wise - only those who have the money, apparently stand much of a chance of being that "educated person" at HYP.
My God! Steady there Reema, no need to write essays
After all we poor people have to read it!
zoraster
Right on. Where in Texas are you from, Sol?
Greater Houston Area! Great to have another Texan on TSR.
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