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why are some symbols banned but not others?

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Jamie

because the soviet union is gone. neo-nazis and white supremisists are alive and well it would seem.
AS had been said many times, the communist ideal for which the symbol stood was not inherently evil, but was taken advantage of.

- How is the hammer and sickle not intrinsically linked to Soviet Communism? Something as simplistic as a google search shows that it is directly accredited to the Soviets. In the case where you suggest it has wider meaning, so does the Swastika.

- The Soviet Union has gone, so has Nazi Germany. Whats the point?

Reply 81

ArthurOliver

Alexdel

Because communism is a theory not built on race superiority whereas nazism is...

If the philosophical founders of Communism say different and Communist regimes frequently act different - why do you cling to this myth? All symbols of terror and supremacism should be banned, that surely includes the swastika, even though it's innocent in the hands of some Buddhists, Hindus, 'Native' Americans and others, and obviously the hammer and sickle, which people have pointed out is used even today by oppressive and mass murdering regimes around the world.

CAPACITY FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEPENDS ON RACE: Capital, vol. 3, chapter 47: "The possibility is here presented for definite economic development taking place, depending, of course, upon favourable circumstances, inborn racial characteristics, etc."

George Watson -- a literary historian specializing in the early history of socialism: "In January 1849, months before he migrated to London, Karl Marx published an article by Friedrich Engels in Die Neue Rheinische Zeitung announcing that in Central Europe only Germans, Hungarians and Poles counted as bearers of progress. The rest must go. "The chief mission of all other races and peoples, large and small, is to perish in the revolutionary holocaust."

Genocide arose out of Marx's master-theory of history -- feudalism giving place inevitably to capitalism, capitalism to socialism. The lesser races of Europe -- Basques, Serbs, Bretons and others -- being sunk in feudalism, were counter-revolutionary; having failed to develop a bourgeoisie, they would be two steps behind in the historical process. Engels dismissed them as left-overs and ethnic trash (Voelkerabfall), and called for their extinction.

So genocide was born as a doctrine in the German Rhineland in January 1849, in a Europe still reeling from the revolutions of 1848. It was to become the beacon light of socialism, proudly held and proudly proclaimed."

MARX ADVOCATED TERRORISM: "The purposeless massacres perpetrated since the June and October events, the tedious offering of sacrifices since February and March, the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terrorism. "

ENGELS LOOKED FORWARD TO NEW HEIGHTS OF MASS SLAUGHTER: "The proletarians, driven to despair, will seize the torch which Stephens has preached to them; the vengeance of the people will come down with a wrath of which the rage of 1795 gives no true idea. The war of the poor against the rich will be the bloodiest ever waged".

MARX SPEAKS OF "REPULSIVE JEWISH FACIAL FEATURES": Marx to Antoinette Philips, March 24, 1861: "This young lady, who instantly overwhelmed me with her kindness, is the ugliest creature I have seen in my entire life, with repulsive Jewish facial features. "

LASALLE, THE "JEWISH NIGGER": Marx to Engels. "The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I'm glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation. The chap would sooner throw money down the drain than lend it to a `friend', even though his interest and capital were guaranteed. In this he bases himself on the view that he ought to live the life of a Jewish baron.... And on top of it all, the sheer gluttony and wanton lechery of this `idealist'! It is now quite plain to me - as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify - that he is descended from the negroes who accompanied Moses' flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandmother interbred with a nigger). Now, this blend of Jewishness and Germanness, on the one hand, and basic negroid stock, on the other, must inevitably give rise to a peculiar product. The fellow's importunity is also nigger-like".

ENGELS THOUGHT ARYANS WERE SUPERIOR: "The plentiful meat and milk diet among the Aryans and the Semites, and particularly the beneficial effects of these foods on the development of children, may, perhaps, explain the superior development of these two races."

Reply 82

technik

Vienna

The Soviet Union has gone, so has Nazi Germany. Whats the point?

quite...

but then it is jamie. inconsistency is his middle name :wink:

Reply 83

RetiredAccount89

No one has ever EVER complained about finding the sickle and hammer offensive.
Not once.

And yet just about everytime LC01 posts and image we get a flurry of complaints. He even downloaded his last image off a neo-nazi/white supremisist website.

And no, if all of a sudden you lot say 'well acutally i find this this and this which i've been happy about for months, but now find offensive' then I'm not going to remove it. Because we all know that you don't find it offensive. Heck you don't even care. You just want to argue for arguements sake.

No more.

Reply 84

Unregistered

Bismarck

I think the tens of millions who were murdered by communist regimes and the billion and a half who were oppresssed by them do find the sickle and hammer offensive.

if communism is the rise of the pro-whatever (masses) then how could their suppression by a few leaders (dictators) calling themselves the communist party be part and parcel with communism.

its like technically zimbabwe is a democratic country, but i think it would be unfair to condemn democracy based on zimbabwe.

Reply 85

Vienna

Jamie

Ive raised the point a number of times, and just because I find something offensive it doesnt mean I agree to it being banned. The Celtic Cross is a symbol with offensive connotations, as is the hammer and sickle. We should be able to discuss their presence on this forum freely, without being dismissed as being simply argumentative.

Reply 86

Lil' Miss Smiley

Oh just shut the feck up the lot of you! Get your blooming heads out from up your butts and stop blooming arguing a point that has been made so many times and can only be said in so many ways.

Had there been serious complaints for the hammer and sickle it would have been removed. There haven't been any serious complaints, so it hasn't, end of.

Speaking as an individual and not as a Mod, I find the neo nazi/ white supremists symbols and links inciteful of hatred and rascism. As did a lot of other members. The majority have spoken and appropriate action had been taken. You don't like it then take your crap elsewhere, cos to be honest the majority can do without listening/reading to this rubbish day in and day out. D&D isn't debate and discussion any longer, it see who can piss the most folks off and and who can argue with a Mod the longest.

Reply 87

Bismarck

Snake

Because violence and genocide are integral parts of the communist ideology. How someone can support a violent overthrow of the existing order and its supporters without supporting the use of violence is beyond me.

There's no such thing as a democratic ideology.

Reply 88

Unregistered

Vienna

I don't think the celtic cross should be banned if people are tlaking about something in which it might fit like celtic jewelry, designs, or celtic themes. But you can't deny that it - like the swastika have been appropriated by certain unsavoury groups and that if placed in a discussion about racial abuse etc can only mean one thing.

Reply 89

Bismarck

ChelseaBabe

Speaking as an individual and not as a Mod, I find the neo nazi/ white supremists symbols and links inciteful of hatred and rascism. As did a lot of other members. The majority have spoken and appropriate action had been taken. You don't like it then take your crap elsewhere, cos to be honest the majority can do without listening/reading to this rubbish day in and day out. D&D isn't debate and discussion any longer, it see who can piss the most folks off and and who can argue with a Mod the longest.

Whose fault is it that some mods don't know the definition of consistency? Anyone who's not able to use basic logic shouldn't be participating in a debate in the first place.

Snake

And the hammer and sickle respesents a group of people who'd happily murder just about every person on this forum if they had the means to do so.

Reply 90

Saffie

I always thought the swastika's meaning changed by varying its direction. The clockwise, Nazi version of the swastika means hate and death while the counter-clockwise version holds the ancient meaning of the symbol, life and good-luck.

IMO, a symbol meaning hate and death should be banned.

Reply 91

Lil' Miss Smiley

Bismarck

Whose fault is it that some mods don't know the definition of consistency? Anyone who's not able to use basic logic shouldn't be participating in a debate in the first place.

Its a pity that some members are inconsistent with their arguments. They change sides so often and swing with the most arguementative person, yes vienna that was aimed at you, without often understanding the debate in the first place and just sit there saying 'oh yeah and that too'.

Reply 92

Bismarck

Saffie

IMO, a symbol meaning hate and death should be banned.

Does that mean you'd be satisfied with symbols representing fascism, since it isn't inherently about hate and death (more like the glorification of your country and its government)?

Reply 93

Vienna

ChelseaBabe

My position has been quite clear as these two posts demonstrate.

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2576864#post2576864
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2588434#post2588434

Having discredited my opinions as mere argument for the sake of argument, are you claiming that the members of D+D, and those that agree with me specifically, dont know their own mind or are incapable of recognising the subject under discussion?

Reply 94

Bismarck

ChelseaBabe

Good luck finding an inconsistency in my argument. I hate Naziism and communism equally, and see no reason why the symbols of one should be banned while the symbol of the other is allowed to remain. This reminds me of the Milton Friedman quote where he claims that if people are allowed to vote on free speech on a case by case basis, they'll vote against free speech in every instance. Only when presented with an abstract definition of free speech would they vote to support it. It seems he was correct.

Reply 95

Unregistered

ChelseaBabe

mods are inconsistent because they are human.
There is a difference though of being inconsistent as in ridiculously biased, and inconsistent as just merely human.
We can't all have the intellectual strength of vienna and bismark.

Tell me why you debate on a predominantly youg student website again? ISn't it time you went onto the big boy debating sites..? :wink:

Reply 96

Vienna

ChelseaBabe

Oh just shut the feck up the lot of you! Get your blooming heads out from up your butts and stop blooming arguing a point that has been made so many times and can only be said in so many ways.

Well, thanks for that. How's the sports forum?

Reply 97

Lil' Miss Smiley

Vienna

Indeed I am not talking about your position. I am talking about that of others. Most tend to agree with you cos they think it is the popular thing to do. And yeah some do not know their own mind and follow blindly like sheep.

Reply 98

ArthurOliver

Jamie

More!

I'm not complaining that I find any symbols offensive, I'm inclined to the view that the claimed 'offense' is bogus--it's a childish attempt at censorship. When Alexdel said he found the swastika sickening I simply don't believe him - sickening? A pictograph made him feel physically sick? What must TV news, novels, movies or a butcher's shop do to the poor soul?

Jamie and Chelseababe, you should try to be moderate with your labelling of political viewpoints--the nazi, supremacist, fascist, racist, far-right, nationalist tags are not interchangeable. Those who pretend they are all the same are guilty of the same childish attempt at censorship and avoidance of open debate as sickly Alexdel.

Reply 99

Unregistered

Vienna

i think she's commenting on the fact you always seem to find the position ofjamie and the mods, and chose the opposite line accordingly.

i find it curious as to how you always know why people were banned so quickly.
Vienna - defender of the far right faith?