Hitler...genius or idiot? Watch

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Bismarck
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#21
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#21
True. However Hitler seized the opportunity and gave the germans the chance to rewrite history, to erase the humility of WW1. And not many Germans saw him as psychotic (you only have to look at the old records with thousands of people cheering him while giving a speech). In offering them a second chance in history they were prepared to follow his orders. Rommel i believe recieved the following telegraph from hitler when things were going quite badly (thankfully) at the battle of Alamein: fight to the last man. Rommel knew that they were going to lose, and it would have been logical to surrender. However he didn;t. Tells u a lot of the mentality that was going on at the time now doesn;t it
ps. I;m very sketchy with the details of that particular incidence, probably might have gone seriously wrong somewhere. However i do think i;m right. If i;m wrong i;ll humbly apologize.
Stresseman managed to erase most clauses from the Versailles Treaty through peaceful means and intended to destroy the rest of the treaty, reclaim land from Poland, and achieve anschluss with Austria through peaceful means. Given Germany's economic and military potential, and the unwillingness of other countries to defend the Versailles settlement, it is very possible that Stresseman's successors could have achieved these goals through peaceful means.
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Darth
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Kondar)
Idiot- So what if he conned the country into following him into war... look at W.

He was an idiot for destroying Europe, he was an idiot for invading Russia, an idiot for killing so many people, an idiot for losing so many battles that he should of won in the later years.
Well consider the following:
the USSR weapons stockpile was growing quite extensively, and rumours in berlin was that Stalin was planning (in a few years) to attack germany. Backstabbing was a major tool stalin used to get to power, and hitler knew it. Hence he decide to attack the USSR before it became too powerfull. So was he an idiot to take that decision? i think not. He was an idiot however when he declared war against the US, know that was a VERY BAD BLUNDER
Now: the battles he should have won in later years:i assume you;re talking about the battle of Stalingrad (which in my opinion is a great human tragedy more men died on that battle then in ANY battle in history, more then the equally tragic battle of the Somme) . i also think you;re talking about the battle of el Alamein. His mistake was not in attacking, but not in believing his field commanders that he was losing and they should retreat, regroup and restrike. He made another big mistake by basing a grman division in the scandinivian countries instead of using it to fight Russia. he did in effect destroy europe, but europe reminds me of the phoenix(HP fan!): it regrew from the ashes and as a result it established a solid doctrine based on that event.
As for killing so many people...
well stalin in his regime killed 20 MILLION people under his regime, another 20 died in WW2. I believe he holds the record of killing people. But back to the point: In killing so many people hitler installed fear in allied soldiers (as did stalin to german soldiers later)
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Darth
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#23
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(Original post by Bismarck)
Stresseman managed to erase most clauses from the Versailles Treaty through peaceful means and intended to destroy the rest of the treaty, reclaim land from Poland, and achieve anschluss with Austria through peaceful means. Given Germany's economic and military potential, and the unwillingness of other countries to defend the Versailles settlement, it is very possible that Stresseman's successors could have achieved these goals through peaceful means.
Also very true. However Stresseman;s peaceful approach was seen as to slow, and with people starving and burning marks cuz its to expensive to buy firewood, many germans at the time would follow hitlers 'quicker' solution: attack a country. exterminate its people, and exploit its resources. Also a weapons/war based economy thrives and gains momentum faster then most economies. just look at the US.
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Bismarck
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#24
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(Original post by Darth)
Also very true. However Stresseman;s peaceful approach was seen as to slow, and with people starving and burning marks cuz its to expensive to buy firewood, many germans at the time would follow hitlers 'quicker' solution: attack a country. exterminate its people, and exploit its resources. Also a weapons/war based economy thrives and gains momentum faster then most economies. just look at the US.
Any rational person would support long-term prosperity over short-term prosperity and long-term poverty and impotence.

Without Hitler, Germany would have at least 25% more people, 50% more territory, and an economy that would rival America's right now.
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Darth
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#25
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[QUOTE=Bismarck]The day Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, Stalin sent Molotov with an offer to give up Belarus, the three Baltic states, and most of the Ukraine if Hitler agreed to a cease-fire.

Correct. lets assume that hitler followed this course of action. most probably the Russians would bide their time then snatch it back (probably from public pressure). In this case hitler would be fighting them either way, better sooner (in an unprepared state, shown with the desperate acts Stalin deployed to deter hitler from fighting), then later (with the russians more prepared easily outnumbering any number of germans in the area


All he did was make Allied soldiers fight even harder because they knew that surrender wasn't an option. The same applies to the countries Hitler occupied. If Hitler treated the occupied people humanely, they probably wouldn't be as willing to rise up against him.[/QUOTE=Bismarck]
Hmm...i honestly did not take this into account. All i can rebuke this with is that when france was occupied it was split into two parts, one with the germans occupying it and one the germans did not occupy (but did place a puppet gov't their). So in a sense surrender is an option (as illustrated by france)
ps. this i very irrelevant but i find it curious that you name yourself Bismarck
and calling Hitler an idiot. the Bismarck was the most famous german battleship of WW2, named after of course the great diplomat Bismarck
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Darth
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#26
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(Original post by Bismarck)
Any rational person would support long-term prosperity over short-term prosperity and long-term poverty and impotence.

Without Hitler, Germany would have at least 25% more people, 50% more territory, and an economy that would rival America's right now.
I agree. However as i have stated before people were literally starving, action at the time was more desirable then having to wait...a decade to start achieving long term prosperity.
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Darth
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#27
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#27
With it being very late now i need to sleep. thanx for the intellectual discussion, esp. bismarck. i;ll continue this tomorro morning. others:feel free to add any (intellectual) additions to this. others: good night
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Bismarck
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#28
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(Original post by Darth)
With it being very late now i need to sleep. thanx for the intellectual discussion, esp. bismarck. i;ll continue this tomorro morning. others:feel free to add any (intellectual) additions to this. others: good night
Good night.
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John82
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#29
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Hitler was a political genius in the sense he gave the people what they wanted and needed. The Treaty of Versailles humilated Germany and the reparations and Great Depression crippled the country. All the governments before the Nazi's failed to address the problems in post-war Germany. Hitler led the country to recovery, and infrastucture such as the Autobahns are still envied today.

Militarily I would say Hitlers use of 'Blitzkrieg' was genius. Until the end of 1941 the German army had successes that stand out as some of the greatest in history. The decision to invade Russia so close to Winter was the beginning of the end and Hitler became a prize idiot. It was also a massive, massive mistake to declare war on America.

I'm not sure the whole holocaust thing made Hitler an idiot, it just made him one of the most evil men in history. Not as evil as Stalin but then Stalin did have longer in power.
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JonD
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#30
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I get the impression his lack of applied intellectual discipline to the fields he tackled, and tried to act an authority in, made him not just a loud-mouthed dabbler, but an idiot. His misinterpretation of Nietzsche, Wagner and others would have made him a laughing stock if he didn't have an army of knee-cap-blasting thugs behind him.
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Bismarck
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#31
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(Original post by John82)
Hitler was a political genius in the sense he gave the people what they wanted and needed. The Treaty of Versailles humilated Germany and the reparations and Great Depression crippled the country. All the governments before the Nazi's failed to address the problems in post-war Germany. Hitler led the country to recovery, and infrastucture such as the Autobahns are still envied today.
Stresseman got rid of reparations in all but name. The economies of the rest of Europe and the US recovered just as quickly as the German economy without the need of electing Nazis.
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TheGenius
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#32
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Who is Hitler? :confused:
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thebucketwoman
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#33
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#33
Genius...? Idiot...?

Nah, w*nker.
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viviki
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#34
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In the early years he had massive support pretty much unparallelled. So yeah he had pretty powerful leadership qualities. Pity he was a megalomaniac really.
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Bismarck
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#35
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(Original post by viviki)
In the early years he had massive support pretty much unparallelled. So yeah he had pretty powerful leadership qualities. Pity he was a megalomaniac really.
You call getting 35% of the vote "massive support"? :confused:
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Darth
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#36
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#36
(Original post by TheGenius)
Who is Hitler? :confused:
You;ve got to be joking :eek:
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unfinished sympathy
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#37
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eh ??????
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Darth
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#38
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#38
(Original post by Bismarck)
The smartest path would be not to the start the war in the first place (stop after taking Austria and the Sudetenland). Once the war started and the Soviet Union attacked, Hitler should have accepted Stalin's offer. This would force Britain's hand and lead it to accept a treaty with Germany in which Germany retained most (if not all) of its conquests. With Britain neutralized and the US unlikely to enter the war merely to defend the Soviet Union, Germany would have no reason to fear an attack from the Soviet Union (Stalin never started wars he couldn't win).



Hitler didn't threaten to annihilate all Frenchmen; he did threaten to enslave and/or kill all Slavs and Jews.



Those who supported Bismarck's ideology opposed Hitler. Bismarck's sought war only as a last resort and was the epitome of moderation. He also said "the secret of politics? Make a good treaty with Russia" and was the only reason why Germany didn't get into a war with Russia as early as the 1870s. Bismarck created Germany through the blood of a few thousand. Hitler destroyed Germany through the blood of tens of millions.



By the time WWII started, Germans were no longer starving. The Depression ended in '37. And the US (and most of Europe) was in a similar predicament, and yet it didn't go around starting wars.
You've clearly shown that Hitler was as a strategic military commander, a huge idiot, and i agree with you on that respect. However, as a POLITICAL leader he was a genius, his effective use of propaganda. and culturing a nation willing to do his bidding (not really however, but i;m actually referring to the group that called themselves i think Hitlers youth/Nazi youth, not quite sure).
ps. sorry for the lateness of my reply, i;ve been preoccupied a bit.
pps. Bismarck was clearly (as you;ve shown me) a smart man. Cool name.
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adam1pl
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#39
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#39
HITLER WAS THE FELON!
HE (OR IT - THE BEAST) KILLED MANY HUMANS FROM POLAND...
AND NOT ONLY!

All over the world occurs the untrue opinion about
the polish participation in WW2...

It's invidious for us!
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Divine89
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#40
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Fine he killed an uncomprehendable number of people, for 'trivial' reasons. But you have to 'respect' the man's ability, charisma, and intelligence, to grip a nation like that is something unparalleled and i doubt it will ever be repeated.
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