grammar question. Watch

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Endymion
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Fleece)
It depends i think..
For example

"I am not lying", he said.

the punctuation goes outside of the quote there. If it is at the end of a sentence though it would go inside the quote marks.
You're confusing quotes with speech. You have speech marks (") in creative writing. When you use quotes ('), you are citing what someone has said. Therefore, you don't use speech marks, because it's not speech.

Anyway, back to the main point, in academic writing, according to the MLA handbook, when you embed a quote into your writing, you will always precede the quote with a source reference (author, text, page number etc.) and those are written in brackets. The full stop is then added after the brackets, as that is where the sentence officially ends.
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Fleece
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#22
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(Original post by Endymion)
You're confusing quotes with speech. You have speech marks (") in creative writing. When you use quotes ('), you are citing what someone has said. Therefore, you don't use speech marks, because it's not speech.

Anyway, back to the main point, in academic writing, according to the MLA handbook, when you embed a quote into your writing, you will always precede the quote with a source reference (author, text, page number etc.) and those are written in brackets. The full stop is then added after the brackets, as that is where the sentence officially ends.
I'm not confusing anything with anything. The example i used could have been from a news story and that's not creative writing. That was a quote by a politician. And i don't really think we were talking about proper quotations where you have to put the reference in.
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bikerx23
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#23
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Also...how did you work out that the main point related to academic writing styles when this had been mentioned. I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that there are several methods for referencing academic texts, such as the stamford method.
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Phonicsdude
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Fleece)
It depends i think..
For example

"I am not lying", he said.

the punctuation goes outside of the quote there. If it is at the end of a sentence though it would go inside the quote marks.
Wrong.
The punctuation mark goes outside the quotation marks if it is part of the sentence.
e.g. `He came up to me and said "you bas***d", so I hit him.
OR
'I hit him because he came up to me and said "you ***tar*".

If the full stop is part of the quotation, and not the sentence, then it comes inside the quotation marks.

e.g. This bloke came up to me and said, "You will never be a fishman."
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jen
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#25
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#25
(Original post by davros)
Just to confuse everyone, both "affect" and "effect" can be used as noun and verb!

In "normal" English, "affect" is a verb and "effect" is a noun, e.g. "how does this affect me?" or "what is the effect of temperature on behaviour?"

In rarer cases, "effect" can also be used as a verb meaning "to achieve", e.g. "How would you effect the elimination of racism in schools?"

In Psychology, "affect" turns up as a noun, meaning "the emotional component of an attitude" (as distinct from the cognitive and behavioural components).

I'll get me coat...

oh god.....trying to get my head round this.......
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Fleece
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Phonicsdude)
Wrong.
The punctuation mark goes outside the quotation marks if it is part of the sentence.
e.g. `He came up to me and said "you bas***d", so I hit him.
OR
'I hit him because he came up to me and said "you ***tar*".

If the full stop is part of the quotation, and not the sentence, then it comes inside the quotation marks.

e.g. This bloke came up to me and said, "You will never be a fishman."
I'm pretty sure that's what i've been saying. I think i said something bout the end of the sentence but then i was only guessing there. And that article i linked you to said if it's part of the quote then it goes inside, if not it goes outside. So, yeh.
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Endymion
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#27
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(Original post by Fleece)
I'm not confusing anything with anything. The example i used could have been from a news story and that's not creative writing. That was a quote by a politician. And i don't really think we were talking about proper quotations where you have to put the reference in.
I'm not doubting the fact it was a quote or not. I'm just saying that you don't use speech marks when writing a quote; in any context, whether it be newspaper, online, essay. It's not a quote if you use speech marks, as it's speech, obviously. Find me an example if you think otherwise. If you don't include a source (reference), then I as far as I'm aware, I don't think there is any standard protocol for the position of the full stop. If there is, then perhaps someone can elucidate some evidence.

(Original post by bikerx23)
Also...how did you work out that the main point related to academic writing styles when this had been mentioned. I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that there are several methods for referencing academic texts, such as the stamford method.
I didn't work anything out. I was merely pointing out that according to the rules of the MLA, the full stop follows a reference, vis-a-vis quotes. As people were asking about the position of the full stop, I thought I'd provide some hard evidence. Also, regardless of how many methods of referencing there may be, the MLA is the official guide to non-fiction writing, period.
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Fleece
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#28
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[QUOTE=Endymion]I'm not doubting the fact it was a quote or not. I'm just saying that you don't use speech marks when writing a quote; in any context, whether it be newspaper, online, essay. It's not a quote if you use speech marks, as it's speech, obviously. Find me an example if you think otherwise. If you don't include a source (reference), then I as far as I'm aware, I don't think there is any standard protocol for the position of the full stop. If there is, then perhaps someone can elucidate some evidence.
QUOTE]

Ugh.ok. That point you were making wasn't clear. And to be honest i have bigger fish to fry than whether i used a speech mark or a quote mark.
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bikerx23
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#29
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#29
I didn't work anything out. I was merely pointing out that according to the rules of the MLA, the full stop follows a reference, vis-a-vis quotes. As people were asking about the position of the full stop, I thought I'd provide some hard evidence. Also, regardless of how many methods of referencing there may be, the MLA is the official guide to non-fiction writing, period.
Do you consistently claim that moving away from the area of discussion is actually going back to the main point then?
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Endymion
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#30
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#30
(Original post by bikerx23)
Do you consistently claim that moving away from the area of discussion is actually going back to the main point then?
How is talking about the correct positioning of a full stop moving away from the main point that Gaz301 made? :confused:

The question:-

(Original post by Gaz031)
I also have a question... Which is the correct way to state a quote?
'Insert quote here'. or 'Insert quote here.'
Thanks.
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Trousers
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#31
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#31
Does anyone actually want to know the answer to this, or are you all happy to swipe at each other?

In British English, when you are quoting someone within a longer sentence, the final punctuation comes outside of the speech marks. In American English, it is tucked inside them regardless. For instance:
Tarquin remarked that he was "proud to be British".
Even though their punctuation makes little sense, George Bush claims he is "proud to be American."

However, if you are writing in British English, the following other rules apply:

If your quotation stands on its own (ie you are quoting an entire sentence without adding 'he said' or similar), your full stop should go inside the speech marks:
"Your disco needs you."

If you're continuing the sentence after the quote, stick a comma after the speech marks:
I looked at his so-called "genitals", and walked away.

And, of course, the use of a question mark or exclamation mark depends on which part of the sentence it relates to. When the question is posed by the speaker, or the exclamation relates to him, it goes within the speech marks:
Freddie thought, "why does my toe feel funny?"
"To the observatory! I have an idea!" bellowed the actor in the crap action movie.

But when it relates to the rest of the sentence, it goes outside of the speech marks:
Why couldn't he just tell her to "bugger off"?
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bikerx23
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Trousers)
yep
If you care to look back to the previous page, you will notice that fleece and I have already resolved this matter.
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Fleece
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#33
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#33
Apparently those are speech marks though.
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Endymion
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Trousers)
Does anyone actually want to know the answer to this, or are you all happy to swipe at each other?
We're not swiping, we're debating. :p: Anyway, as Fleece said, you're refering to speech in text, not quotations in text. Incidentally, where did you lift those rules from? I've not seen them before.
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Trousers
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Endymion)
We're not swiping, we're debating. :p: Anyway, as Fleece said, you're refering to speech in text, not quotations in text. Incidentally, where did you lift those rules from? I've not seen them before.
Lift them? Is it really that difficult to believe that someone might actually know how to use punctuation without having to copy and paste the rules?

And the rules can be applied to quotations or speech.

What is the world coming to?
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Endymion
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Trousers)
Lift them? Is it really that difficult to believe that someone might actually know how to use punctuation without having to copy and paste the rules?

And the rules can be applied to quotations or speech.

What is the world coming to?
Calm down, I was just asking where you got those rules from; I never said I doubted them.
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Manatee
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#37
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#37
(Original post by chewwy)
which is correct:

members' cats

members's cats.

i should have listened in primary school
Probably too late to be of any use, but here goes:

"members' cats" (if more than one member)

"member's cats" (if one member only)

(Original post by visesh)
I think the firt one is correct, and the second one acceptable.
Good lord. "Members's cats" is most definitely wrong. Unless the cats belong to someone called Members, in which case "Members's cats" is, I believe, technically correct.
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Gaz031
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#38
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#38
Thank you everyone (though especially Trousers) for clearing that up.
It's interesting to see that a question of grammar can evoke such passion in people.
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SamTheMan
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Phonicsdude)
Wrong.
The punctuation mark goes outside the quotation marks if it is part of the sentence.
e.g. `He came up to me and said "you bas***d", so I hit him.
OR
'I hit him because he came up to me and said "you ***tar*".

If the full stop is part of the quotation, and not the sentence, then it comes inside the quotation marks.

e.g. This bloke came up to me and said, "You will never be a fishman."
Well Fleece gave the example of: "I am not lying", he said.

You could also say that "I am not lying" is a sentence and thus, should end with a full stop, inside the quotation marks.
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Trousers
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#40
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#40
(Original post by SamTheMan)
Well Fleece gave the example of: "I am not lying", he said.

You could also say that "I am not lying" is a sentence and thus, should end with a full stop, inside the quotation marks.
Not if you're writing 'he said' afterwards, because the sentence doesn't end at the end of the quoted words.
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