The TSR Palestinian Society Watch

Evil-Tuna
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#1741
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#1741
(Original post by Carl)
Get this. According to TFOJ I'm an anti Semite
Oh dear. I wonder what I am then? :eek:
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Helzerel
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#1742
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#1742
(Original post by Evil-Tuna)
Oh dear. I wonder what I am then? :eek:
Founding member of the Zionist Conspiracy probably. :p:
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Invocation
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#1743
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#1743
I thought I bring to you all the methods of psychological warfare Israel is using:

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/...0010524ib.html
http://www.miftah.org/PrinterF.cfm?DocId=6475
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2002/08/37613.html?c=on
http://haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt...&contrassID=1&

Just one example being in recent years, the Israeli airforce has been making nightly low-level flights by supersonic aircraft to create sonic booms over Palestinian civilians to wake them from sleep; obviously done to try and break the will of the people. What humane, nice people. :rolleyes:
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Carl
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#1744
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#1744
Of course, bus bombings and mortar fire don't count as psychological warfare :rolleyes:
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Invocation
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#1745
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#1745
(Original post by Carl)
Of course, bus bombings and mortar fire don't count as psychological warfare :rolleyes:
I denounced that crap many a time, so I don't know why you're bringing that up. I'm yet to see "the other side" denounce these sort of actions.
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Carl
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#1746
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#1746
I denounce all acts of war and violence on the two sides. I'd love to see them at the negociating table, and I hate seeing humans killing and harming each other needlessly. However, until certain Islamist groups recognise Israel's right to exist, then there is never going to be dialogue, and the suffering of the Palestinian people will continue.
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Invocation
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#1747
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#1747
(Original post by Carl)
I denounce all acts of war and violence on the two sides. I'd love to see them at the negociating table, and I hate seeing humans killing and harming each other needlessly. However, until certain Islamist groups recognise Israel's right to exist, then there is never going to be dialogue, and the suffering of the Palestinian people will continue.
And that gives Israel the right to use these sort of actions on civilians ?
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Carl
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#1748
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#1748
In retaliation for rocket attacks? Yes, of course.

On their own, no. But that wasn't the point you were making. Both sides play at psychological warfare, so don't make out like Israel are the only bad guys here, because they aren't.
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Invocation
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#1749
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#1749
(Original post by Carl)
In retaliation for rocket attacks? Yes, of course.
I can't believe you think it's OK to use these sort of methods on civilians. tut tut. Non combatants if you will.

On their own, no. But that wasn't the point you were making. Both sides play at psychological warfare, so don't make out like Israel are the only bad guys here, because they aren't.
So your point comes down to...

Palestinians using psychological warfare ~ bad
Israelis using psychological warfare ~ justified

Seems like a bit of a double standard. :rolleyes:

And that goes on the premise that the Palestinians have the capacity to wage psychological warfare. What psychological warfare can the Palestinians wage ? Throwing rocks at tanks while the storm down Palestinian roads ?
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Carl
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#1750
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#1750
(Original post by Invocation)
I can't believe you think it's OK to use these sort of methods on civilians. tut tut. Non combatants if you will.
What do the Palestinian terrorists attack? Wait, it is, you've guessed it, civilians? The sonic booms are supposed to help wane support for Islamist groups, although I can see why it has the opposite effect.

So your point comes down to...

Palestinians using psychological warfare ~ bad
Israelis using psychological warfare ~ justified

Seems like a bit of a double standard. :rolleyes:

And what psychological warfare can the Palestinians wage ? Throwing rocks at tanks while the storm down Palestinian roads ?
Ok I see your double standard, and I concede it was a bit rash of me to come out and say that sonic booms are ok. They're not. Civilians shouldn't be targeted in any scenario, and I reckon sonic booms could be counter productive.

However, what psychological warfare can the Palestinians wage? Doesn't terrorism (rockets and suicide bombs) count as psychological warfare?
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Invocation
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#1751
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#1751
(Original post by Carl)
What do the Palestinian terrorists attack? Wait, it is, you've guessed it, civilians? The sonic booms are supposed to help wane support for Islamist groups, although I can see why it has the opposite effect.
What the sonic booms do, is hold the Palestinians hostage, and say if you don't stop supporting your democratically elected government, you won't get any sleep. Seems like psychological terrorism to me.

Ok I see your double standard, and I concede it was a bit rash of me to come out and say that sonic booms are ok. They're not. Civilians shouldn't be targeted in any scenario, and I reckon sonic booms could be counter productive.
Glad to hear that.
However, what psychological warfare can the Palestinians wage? Doesn't terrorism (rockets and suicide bombs) count as psychological warfare?
Technically yes, but all warfare can be deemed psychological in some way. The point of psychological warfare is mostly non-violent pissing off, aimed at causing enough mental anguish to break the will of the enemy. Modern Palestinian terrorism has moved from the this, because they realise that Israel won't budge. That's why they've now put more emphasis on grassroots armed resistance.
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*titanium*
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#1752
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#1752
Actualy the phycological warfare unit is about leafleting and the like, and not buzzing palestinians. Is that wrong? because in that case scores of people are bieng imorale everyday because i get so many leaflets given to me. So why does the IDF doing it make it wrong?
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Invocation
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#1753
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#1753
Tell that to the Palestinians who are woken up by sonic booms. Mainstream media has covered many a time, so please don't tell me their lying. And what about Israeli political assassinations? These assassinations appear designed to make Palestinians feel that no matter who they are or what they do, Israel has the capacity to kill them at its discretion and without any obligation to come forward with evidence or justification. It appears every adult Palestinian is a potential target. An acute level of anxiety among Palestinians is evident.

Tell that to the many families who have lost their homes to Israeli bulldozers. They typically arrive between midnight and 2:00 a.m., soldiers give inhabitants seven minutes to vacate their home, and then they proceed to destroy it as well as trees, wells, and farm buildings. House demolitions are a microcosm of Israel’s general approach to the Palestinian population. Palestinians are not treated as “protected persons,” as legally required by the Geneva Conventions, or even with a minimal respect due to all human beings. It is traumatic in the extreme to lose a home and livelihood as a result of a midnight action of this sort, especially considering that those so victimized have not been accused of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

Tell that to Israeli Chief of Staff Moshe Yaalon speaking of the need to "sear into the consciousness of the Palestinians" that resistance to the Israeli occupation was futile and would earn them no achievements.

And what about the blatant misinformation The Psychological Warfare Unit uses, trying to manipulate thinking and turn the people against their democratically elected government e.g. the unit put up large posters at the Mintar (Karni) crossing between Gaza and Israel proper, which has been closed for more than two weeks, printed with the words "Closed because of Hamas".

FFS no, titanium, it's not about handing out leafleting with goody bags full of sweets. It's about trying to brainwash civilians ]while breaking their will. Atype of war has been waged on civilians so you can try and spin it all you want, but the facts speak for themselves. :rolleyes:
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Apagg
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#1754
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#1754
Invocation, a few weeks ago you were advocating this kind of behaviour by Israel as a peaceful alternative to warfare. You claimed Israel should use diplomacy and propaganda to win the Palestinian people over and hence end the bloodshed.
If both violent and non-violent methods are off the table, what exactly do you think Israel should do?
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Invocation
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#1755
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#1755
(Original post by Apagg)
Invocation, a few weeks ago you were advocating this kind of behaviour by Israel as a peaceful alternative to warfare. You claimed Israel should use diplomacy and propaganda to win the Palestinian people over and hence end the bloodshed.
If both violent and non-violent methods are off the table, what exactly do you think Israel should do?
I said never advocated any such thing.
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Apagg
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#1756
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#1756
Hmm, are you not The Chauffeur then?
In any case, what do you think Israel should do to prevent terrorist attacks from Palestine?
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Invocation
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#1757
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#1757
(Original post by Apagg)
Hmm, are you not The Chauffeur then?
In any case, what do you think Israel should do to prevent terrorist attacks from Palestine?
I was the Chauffeur.

I'm not a military strategist, but how about stop pissing them off ?
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Evil-Tuna
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#1758
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#1758
He was the chauffeur ages ago. More than just a few weeks.

Plus, I doubt he advocates collective punishment.
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Apagg
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#1759
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#1759
Good, my memory isn't failing just yet then.
I recall discussing with you what Israel's methods should be to prevent terrorist attacks from Palestine. Whilst being against military intervention, you did favour a propaganda war.
As for "stop pissing them off", you agreed with me that appeasement doesn't work in the Middle East. You also agreed that it was unreasonable to expect Israel to do nothing in retaliation to terrorist attacks.
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Invocation
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#1760
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#1760
(Original post by Apagg)
Good, my memory isn't failing just yet then.
I recall discussing with you what Israel's methods should be to prevent terrorist attacks from Palestine. Whilst being against military intervention, you did favour a propaganda war.
There are different types of propaganda, some is legitimate information, most of it psychological warfare. e.g. Releasing informative leaflets vs. releasing leaflets which purposely try to turn them against what they want i.e. Hamas in government; and if they don't agree to the latter, sonic booms will continue. psychological hostage taking, if anything :rolleyes:
As for "stop pissing them off", you agreed with me that appeasement doesn't work in the Middle East. You also agreed that it was unreasonable to expect Israel to do nothing in retaliation to terrorist attacks.
The Palestinians just want to get on with their life, with self determination, with their own land. A fair enough request. But when illegal settlements continue to devour Palestinian land, pissing them off even more, it makes one wonder if Israel will ever let them achieve self-determination.

If I were in their shoes, just out of drive for self-determination I wouldn't give into the country which had demolished my house, stole my land, to make way for another group of people. And I don't think peaceful demonstrations would convince Israel to stop; after all, few media reporters would dare report it, so Isreal wouldn't have it's image tarnished. I can understand why they take up arms, to protect their land and people; the fact they have nothing left to lose would motivate them even more. Throw in some Jihad for good measure, and you have an unstoppable force.
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