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    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    Its surrender when you save the life of a man who has made it his mission to encourage others to take the lives of innocent people.
    No surrender would be to submitt to him, to addopt his corrupt beliefs.

    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    This single action can have massive repurcussions, like a ripple effect. The effects this could have on extremism are part of the fundamental ethics of this debate, especially in light of the events of 7/7.
    Sorry, your right, I agree with this, but what repreacusions this decision has can only be speculated, it's all conjecture.

    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    I don't believe in capital punishment, but I don't believe in making people save the person who praised and encouraged the murder of their near and dear.
    That is passive capital punishment.

    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    MrCheese, let me ask you one question. Would you pay for the surgeryof someone who incited the brutal murder of your Mum, or Dad, or best mate. If you can say yes, then I will say this: you are a much better man than I am. But you cannot expect the whole world to run on charity. People are not asking for revenge here, all the want is justice.
    Don't ask those sort of questions, you can never answer them correctly. If I say yes I either get called heartless or a liar. But I can tell you that having him die would bring me no satisfation, as I'd be no better than him. And i most certainly don't incite his death, there is no justice in that.
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    As a question, if your worst enemy was hanging off a cliff, would you help them up or stamp on thier hands?
    That isn't really a very suitable analogy.
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    Howard, really, the justice system, in fact ALL our systems do not use revenge as a criteria.
    Well, people get sent to prison as a punishment don't they? Isn't punishment a form of state imposed revenge for doing something wrong?
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    (Original post by Tonight Matthew)
    That isn't really a very suitable analogy.
    Analogies never are. That's why I try not to use them.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Well, people get sent to prison as a punishment don't they? Isn't punishment a form of state imposed revenge for doing something wrong?
    Absolutely not, people are imprisoned as a deterrant, so that they don't repeat the crime and neither does anyone else, or as a way of protecting society if they are considered 'unreformed'

    If it were revenge then murders would be executed
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    (Original post by Tonight Matthew)
    That isn't really a very suitable analogy.
    Why not?
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    Why not?
    Enemy hanging off cliff: don't help them, certain death. No one else can help them, splat.

    Bakri: don't help him, not certain death. Britain isn't the only place in the world that can do heart surgery.
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    Omar Bakri has very wealthy relatives in Lebanon. In fact, he has spent all of this time at a family member's estate. After leaching 18,000 pounds a year and then acting like a complete B*****d, I only think it is fair that he gets the operation done on his own.
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    (Original post by Tonight Matthew)
    Enemy hanging off cliff: don't help them, certain death. No one else can help them, splat.

    Bakri: don't help him, not certain death. Britain isn't the only place in the world that can do heart surgery.
    If it's a matter of life and death, and you can do something, then you have to take responsibility.

    It would be pointless to direct him round the world saying, 'can you give him heart surgery, has he pissed you off?'

    I'm under the impression he can't get it in Lebanon, and his easiest connection is here, or was here I suppose now. If he can, and all he has to do is pay, then by all means he should stay there and pay for it.
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    Absolutely not, people are imprisoned as a deterrant, so that they don't repeat the crime and neither does anyone else, or as a way of protecting society if they are considered 'unreformed'

    If it were revenge then murders would be executed
    Well, I disagree with that. The penal system was originally developed as punishment, as was capital punishment, deportation to the colonies etc.

    "Deterrance" and "rehabilitation" have their places (especially with trendy criminal psychologists) but punishment IMO is still the trump card of purposes for imprisonment.

    If the sole purpose of prison was to deter and to rehabilitate then it would be possible for a mass murderer to convince the prison board that he is indeed a reformed character and poses no further threat after just one year into his sentance and be released accordingly. Indeed, I'm sure that some of these people may genuinly reform and pose no further threat a short way into their sentance. Are they released accordingly? Certainly not. Why? Because the other (in my view "main") purpose of imprisonment, punishment, has not been fulfilled. Society's retribution has not been satisfied.
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    If it's a matter of life and death, and you can do something, then you have to take responsibility.

    It would be pointless to direct him round the world saying, 'can you give him heart surgery, has he pissed you off?'

    I'm under the impression he can't get it in Lebanon, and his easiest connection is here, or was here I suppose now. If he can, and all he has to do is pay, then by all means he should stay there and pay for it.
    Well I'm personally glad that no matter what some kind souls may want, Bakri will not be getting any surgery here. I'm sure he'll probably find somewhere to get it done, the world is a reasonably big place.
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    Absolutely not, people are imprisoned as a deterrant, so that they don't repeat the crime and neither does anyone else, or as a way of protecting society if they are considered 'unreformed'
    By that rationale we wouldn't be trying and imprisoning ex nazi death camp guards would we? I doubt some 94 year old living in Essex in 2005 would need to be deterred from recommitting crimes he partook of in Poland in 1942! He's put in prison as a punishment.
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    I'm confused, how is saving a man's life surrender?

    How helping him will affect extremist views of wester civilisation was only a subsisery issue, ppl are forgetting the fundemental ethics of this debate.

    OK, seriously, how many ppl here belive in capital punishment?
    It's nothing to do with surrender...it's just the usual tabloid nonsense of 'we won't surrender, we are not afraid etc.' that people gobble up since it's the only way of pretending to be strong when in fact if a couple more attacks take place there would be chaos after which the tablois will probably take it a noch further by saying 'lets get the *******s, lets bomb <imput country>' or something to that effect....

    All these impulsive nonsense won't get us anywhere, nutcases will be prepared to blow themselves up and we will be saying how strong we are..
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Well, I disagree with that. The penal system was originally developed as punishment, as was capital punishment, deportation to the colonies etc.

    "Deterrance" and "rehabilitation" have their places (especially with trendy criminal psychologists) but punishment IMO is still the trump card of purposes for imprisonment.

    If the sole purpose of prison was to deter and to rehabilitate then it would be possible for a mass murderer to convince the prison board that he is indeed a reformed character and poses no further threat after just one year into his sentance and be released accordingly. Indeed, I'm sure that some of these people may genuinly reform and pose no further threat a short way into their sentance. Are they released accordingly? Certainly not. Why? Because the other (in my view "main") purpose of imprisonment, punishment, has not been fulfilled. Society's retribution has not been satisfied.
    I still don't see what purpose retribution serves, other than to provide this sadistic pleasure, that just makes me feel small and pathetic.

    I don't really know what to say to either of these comments - I suppose this is where it comes down to opinion - suffice to say I've lost a little more faith in humanity. At this rate I'll soon be cynical :frown:
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    (Original post by Alexdel)
    It's nothing to do with surrender...it's just the usual tabloid nonsense of 'we won't surrender, we are not afraid etc.' that people gobble up since it's the only way of pretending to be strong when in fact if a couple more attacks take place there would be chaos after which the tablois will probably take it a noch further by saying 'lets get the *******s, lets bomb <imput country>' or something to that effect....

    All these impulsive nonsense won't get us anywhere, nutcases will be prepared to blow themselves up and we will be saying how strong we are..
    The usual tabloid nonsense you speak of 'we won't surrender, we are not afraid etc.' is the same nonsense that got Londoners, indeed the whole of Britain, through WWII.

    "We shall never surrender" Sounds vaguely Churchillian wouldn't you agree?

    There won't be chaos after a few more attacks. If Londoners could get through the Blitz, and years of IRA bombings etc, I don't think the city is going to grind to a halt anytime soon. Don't judge everybody by your own standards of weakness.
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    I still don't see what purpose retribution serves, other than to provide this sadistic pleasure, that just makes me feel small and pathetic.

    I don't really know what to say to either of these comments - I suppose this is where it comes down to opinion - suffice to say I've lost a little more faith in humanity. At this rate I'll soon be cynical :frown:
    So, if somebody killed and mutilated your entire family you'd be happy to see them walk free after a short spell (say 6 months) in the clink provided you were happy they wouldn't do it again? You wouldn't want any retribution at all? Who are you, Jesus?
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    I still don't see what purpose retribution serves, other than to provide this sadistic pleasure, that just makes me feel small and pathetic.

    I don't really know what to say to either of these comments - I suppose this is where it comes down to opinion - suffice to say I've lost a little more faith in humanity. At this rate I'll soon be cynical :frown:
    So you propose that we all dance around in a circle of love and friendship and forget about justice.:rolleyes: Why don't we let all the criminals and convicts go to a wonderful tropical paradise, courtesy of the tax-payer, because keeping them in prison is a form of retribution.

    GIVE ME A BREAK!!!! Are you living in La-La land, or Middle-Earth? I don't mean to be offensive, and I can see you are a compassionate and idealistic person, but you sound like you are full of it! People have seen their friends and countrymen murdered, and we are not supposed to want justice? We are supposed to let go of the horrific events of 7/7?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    So, if somebody killed and mutilated your entire family you'd be happy to see them walk free after a short spell (say 6 months) in the clink provided you were happy they wouldn't do it again? You wouldn't want any retribution at all? Who are you, Jesus?
    Good one!!!! Very well said.
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    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    So you propose that we all dance around in a circle of love and friendship and forget about justice
    "Kumbaya" anybody?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    "Kumbaya" anybody?
    *Singing* Kumbaya my Lord, Kumbaya. Kumbaya my Lord, Kumbaya.
    Kumbaya my Lord, Kumbaya. Oh Lord Kumbaya!!!!

    Anyone know the next few lines??
 
 
 
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