This thread is closed

reducing intake from private schools

Helenia

Which is why they set additional tests and interview, to stretch those candidates who may have benefitted from a better education and see if their academic capability matches their record. (NB in my books, "better education" does not = "grades handed out on a silver platter.") They also use UMS marks as an indicator - for example I got 298, 296, 293 and 257 :redface:

(German, so not related to Medicine and also a mess-up on the school's behalf, not mine); I THINK that might indicate that I could probably have scraped a few As at a state school.

I agree with you there; I think 'grades handed out on a silver platter' is a bit of an exaggeration, but there's no denying that private schools provide a better education. So are you saying that they expect higher UMS marks for private school applicants than state schooolers, or did you just mean that your UMS marks show you're capable of As? Well done, by the way :biggrin:

Reply 101

Helenia

20

kellywood_5

I agree with you there; I think 'grades handed out on a silver platter' is a bit of an exaggeration, but there's no denying that private schools provide a better education. So are you saying that they expect higher UMS marks for private school applicants than state schooolers, or did you just mean that your UMS marks show you're capable of As? Well done, by the way :biggrin:

They do indeed - though mine was far from exemplary.

As for UMS, I'm not sure about having higher expectations, but perhaps if they're looking at a private school candidate who has very high UMS, they could be fairly confident in their ability, while if someone got 240ish then they might begin to question how much innate ability they have and how much is down to school coaching. Not that exam coaching doesn't happen in state schools but it's possibly not with such an individual focus. There might be more room for leeway where state sector UMS are concerned (depending on the quality of the school :wink:

)

Reply 102

wanderer

2

MadNatSci

What about top state schools? - which can be better than many private schools (eg Hills Road Cambridge, which churns out about 30 Oxbridge students every year and is a state sixth-form college).

Apparently my state comp is the best place in the country to study A level science, according to the Good Schools Guide. Another reason to regret not taking any sciences. :frown:

I can see why people get worked up about this - 45% from private schools when they only account for 6% of secondary pupils is pretty jarring. But the claim that this is due to good state pupils not applying is pretty convincing (when I asked a DoS on the open day how I should know whether I was good enough at maths to apply, his instant answer was 'our main problem is convincing good candidates to apply), especially when you look at the apparatus they have to distinguish between candidates on the basis of potential. STEP (for maths) is a good example - having tried some questions, I can vouch that you're gonna have to be pretty good damn at maths to make the grades in it.

Also, I spoke to a couple of very bright people in my year a while ago (both prime oxbridge candidates with a raft of A*s at GCSE, extra-curricular etc. - and both doctor's daughters, interestingly enough) who both said stuff along the lines of 'it's too posh/clever/expensive.' This is at a very good state school with a history of regularly getting people into oxbridge. Luckily our school runs trips to the open days, which changed both their minds, but I doubt the proportion of state schools who do that is particularly high.

Reply 103

Supermerp

2

wanderer

STEP (for maths) is a good example - having tried some questions, I can vouch that you're gonna have to be pretty good damn at maths to make the grades in it.

But it also helps a lot to have you school help you with past papers/extra coaching/whatever, which is more likely in private schools. I'm not saying the STEP is a bad thing to use as part of differentiating between students, but any examination is always going to have that problem with it, I think.

Reply 104

H&E

3

Supermerp

But it also helps a lot to have you school help you with past papers/extra coaching/whatever, which is more likely in private schools. I'm not saying the STEP is a bad thing to use as part of differentiating between students, but any examination is always going to have that problem with it, I think.

Not necessarily! Step forward the Oxford History Admissions Test

The average score among candidates of all backgrounds varies by just 5%. The variation amongst what you might call 'specialist' schools, be they sixth form colleges, grammar schools, grant maintained schools or indepedent schools, is under 1%.

Reply 105

xx_ambellina_xx

14

H&E

Not necessarily! Step forward the Oxford History Admissions Test

The average score among candidates of all backgrounds varies by just 5%. The variation amongst what you might call 'specialist' schools, be they sixth form colleges, grammar schools, grant maintained schools or indepedent schools, is under 1%.

Eeeep. I reckon I would have failed the HAT.

Reply 106

Narcissus

Possibly, but the HAT is new, indys haven't got used to it yet - give it a few years :wink:

Reply 107

luminous

priya

this was published in the Times today:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1735725,00.html

for those of you who don't wanna read the whole thing, oxbridge have been given 'tips and hints' on how to best accomodate state school applicants. the article also states that the government has told oxbridge to ''aim to reduce their intake from private schools to 25% by 2009''.

Personally, i find this ludicrous. By positively discriminating against private school candidates, who might be better than their state school piers, oxbridge are going to be forced to lower their own standards. surely the government must realise that they have to concentrate on giving more support to the state schools, and encouraging application from this sector, rather than simply refusing to take private school pupils?!!?

bleh.

It's a proven fact that privately educated students fare worse at degree level than do their state school couterparts in terms of achieving 1st class marks overall. Bristol university knows this and counts, I think very fairly, 3 Bs from a comprehensive in a deprived area as demonstrating superior potential than 3 As from a private school. Above, someone noted that the universities are looking for the best students and that this does not necessarily entail the most educated. Oxbridge suffers from a perception of having class-based admissions criteria, and it is this that the universities must try to allay. Furthermore, private students, perhaps owing to their liklihod of having university educated parents and a general sense of entitlement, may exhibit more confidence at interview. It is not as easy for state school students to get into Oxbridge, or even to contemplate applying, so positive discrimination IS absolutely necessary. Anyone who thinks that private schools produce the 'best' students in the UK, and that the admissions figures at Oxbridge fairly represent the relative distribution of intelligence and scholarly potential accross all the schools in the UK is being foolish at best; and at worst merely self-serving.

Reply 108

luminous

the_brainaic

SlyPie - How is that extremely high? Private school pupils get a better education than state school pupils, in general, and they will end up with better marks and probably being more intelligent.

Get over your A levels! They may seem important to you now, and they are in an instrumental way, but the fact is that they don't measure your 'intelligence'! Why would someone who has been lucky enough to be 'better educated' at 18 years old be more 'intelligent' than someone who did not benefit from such an environment, but showed considerable potential. You should be sent to a developing country for a gap year, and see how well received are your theories on education and intelligence. Want to extrapolate further and include class? race?

Reply 109

wanderer

2

Supermerp

But it also helps a lot to have you school help you with past papers/extra coaching/whatever, which is more likely in private schools. I'm not saying the STEP is a bad thing to use as part of differentiating between students, but any examination is always going to have that problem with it, I think.

Yes, but coaching will help much less than with A level 'type' questions. Certainly help from your school is a good thing, but I doubt anyone could get the 1 2 in STEP without having a fair amount of mathematical brainpower. People who have the potential and don't get the grades is an issue I guess.

Reply 110

Supermerp

2

wanderer

People who have the potential and don't get the grades is an issue I guess.

That's what I meant :smile:

Reply 111

wanderer

2

Supermerp

That's what I meant :smile:

Cool, glad we agree. :biggrin:

Reply 112

H&E

3

luminous

It's a proven fact that privately educated students fare worse at degree level than do their state school couterparts in terms of achieving 1st class marks overall.

Where's the evidence for this?

My suspicion is that you have misunderstood the following news story, which broke out about six months ago. "Research carried out for the HEFC shows that, comparing pupils with the same A-level grades, those from independent schools are less likely on average to get a first or upper second than those from state schools, irrespective of what they study or how academically selective the university is." (I suspect this because this is the only source I can find for your 'fact'. I'll be delighted to see another, more detailed source).

That research in no way supports your contention. It merely states the obvious: if you are taught better, you can achieve the same result as brighter students who are not taught as well.

I think you'll find on average the indepedent educated at Oxford do have slightly higher GCSE and A-level grades, precisely because they have to outperform their state educated counterparts to demonstrate equal potential. Hence it's difficult to see the relevance of the above research for this particular discussion.

luminous

3 Bs from a comprehensive in a deprived area as demonstrating superior potential than 3 As from a private school.

This is problematic. The private educated student has done as well as he possibly could. If doing the best possible doesn't prove potential, what does?

Reply 113

Che!

11

priya

for those of you who don't wanna read the whole thing, oxbridge have been given 'tips and hints' on how to best accomodate state school applicants. the article also states that the government has told oxbridge to ''aim to reduce their intake from private schools to 25% by 2009''.

For goodness sake!
If someones good enough to get into Oxbridge, It doesnt matter where they go!
I wish the Govt. would stop fiddling things like this!

Reply 114

KaiserSoze

1

luminous

It's a proven fact that privately educated students fare worse at degree level than do their state school couterparts in terms of achieving 1st class marks overall.

The 'proven fact' to which you refer is presumably the endlessly quoted research that state school pupils with the same grades as private school pupils *tend* (note the difference between tending to do something, and it always happening) to do better at university. As I understand it this conclusion was based on research concentrated on the middle grades, rather than A's, though as has been observed, if you have evidence otherwise feel free to produce it.

luminous

Bristol university knows this and counts, I think very fairly, 3 Bs from a comprehensive in a deprived area as demonstrating superior potential than 3 As from a private school.

Can *anyone* who advocates this policy provide a satisfactory answer to this question: if a pupil from a private school achieves 3 A's, clocking up massive UMS scores, what more can they do??? It's argurable that a C could be worth a B - the B could be better after all, but at the top end the argument simply breaks down - once you reach the highest marks, there is simply nowhere else to go.

Reply 115

Narcissus

We can do even more A Levels and AEAs :biggrin:

Reply 116

KaiserSoze

1

Narcissus

We can do even more A Levels and AEAs :biggrin:

Not at all private schools, or indeed i suspect most (4 was the maximum at mine, which didn't even offer AEA's) - the problem of the B=A approach remains that there comes a point when it is physically impossible for the private school pupil to equal the adjusted grades of the state school pupil - it's an overly simplistic solution to a complex problem.

Reply 117

Narcissus

Well private schools want the introduction of A+ and A++ grades to allow for this.

Reply 118

KaiserSoze

1

Narcissus

Well private schools want the introduction of A+ and A++ grades to allow for this.

Which would definitely be a step in the right direction :smile:

However it's likely that the same problem would result: it would be claimed that an A was equivilent to an A++ or similar. The fact remains that such a simple analysis cannot work at the upper limit, and there will always be a limit of some kind.

Reply 119

nas7232

19

What's the point in spending huge amounts of money to go to private school to have a less chance of getting into the top universities. This is discrimination against people who go to private schools. :rolleyes:

reducing intake from private schools

Related discussions

Trending

Latest

Latest