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    This is taken from the National Anthem thread, which was closed...
    (Original post by Howard)
    Turkey isn't European. It sort of sits geographically between Europe and Asia.

    Culturally speaking the Turks don't have much in common with the remainder if Europe. For a start, they are Muslim (albeit fairly secular) whereas the rest of Europe is Christian.

    And of course, they are not members of the EU, and they won't be joining next May with Poland and everyone else because they have a human rights record that stinks.......real bad.

    Turkey, European? Sure.......
    Turkey has more in common with Europe than Asia. Both culturally and historically, at least since the fall of the Ottoman Empire and "the sick man of Europe" (what, of Europe? It was considered European even back then...?).
    Yes, it is a secular state, which it has been since Atatürk, so for quite some time now. You cannot really say that the country is Muslim, as Islam is not the law. Wearing veils in public places such as public universities is forbidden for instance. Atatürk also forced men to wear Western hats instead of the fez, because he wanted Turkey to be European.

    Being European does not neccesarily mean being in the EU. I might as well say that they participate in the European Song Contest and hence they must be European.
    Yes they have a bad human rights record when it comes to the Kurds, but they're not exactly alone in that...

    Besides, they consider themselves to be European (those I know anyways). To quote an Economist cover a while back "Turkey belongs in Europe!"
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    Yes, and we consider ourselves to be a state of USA.
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    (Original post by 2776)
    Yes, and we consider ourselves to be a state of USA.
    Those I know consider themselves to be European rather than asian or middle eastern. They're from Istanbul though, which IS European.
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    are we talking about a turkey that you eat????
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    (Original post by Linda)
    Those I know consider themselves to be European rather than asian or middle eastern. They're from Istanbul though, which IS European.
    Yes, and I am also stating the fact that we are closer to America than Europe in some sense...so UK is regarded by some is a "state" of the US.
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    In my opinion, Turkey is a European country. Whether it is the right time for them to join the EU is another matter. I would say not yet.
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    ohhhhhh Turkey as in the country right silly me *tut*
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    I always thought the sick man of Europe was a reference to the UK under the quagmire of union activism that bought the country to a grinding halt back in the 70's; I must admit I'd never heard Turkey referred to in that way (except possibly in the Economist"

    What's this about not really being able to say "the country is Muslim, as Islam is not the law"? I think you are confusing law with religion. To me that's a bit like saying "you can't really say the country (let's pick France for convenience) is Christian because Christianity is not the law (and the Napoleonic tradition is)

    "Wearing veils in public places such as public universities is forbidden for instance"

    Quite so. But a ban of certain clothes in public places is not common to Europe.

    "Atatürk also forced men to wear Western hats instead of the fez, because he wanted Turkey to be European"

    Nor, is forcing people to wear a hat a particularly European trait.

    Ok, I'm nitpicking here a bit but I really don't agree with you when you say "being European does not neccesarily mean being in the EU" I'm afraid that legally speaking it means exactly that.

    Finally, considing yourself to be something doesn't make it so. (there's no shortages of lunatics that genuinely believe they are Napoleon)

    Howard
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I always thought the sick man of Europe was a reference to the UK under the quagmire of union activism that bought the country to a grinding halt back in the 70's; I must admit I'd never heard Turkey referred to in that way (except possibly in the Economist"

    What's this about not really being able to say "the country is Muslim, as Islam is not the law"? I think you are confusing law with religion. To me that's a bit like saying "you can't really say the country (let's pick France for convenience) is Christian because Christianity is not the law (and the Napoleonic tradition is)

    "Wearing veils in public places such as public universities is forbidden for instance"

    Quite so. But a ban of certain clothes in public places is not common to Europe.

    "Atatürk also forced men to wear Western hats instead of the fez, because he wanted Turkey to be European"

    Nor, is forcing people to wear a hat a particularly European trait.

    Ok, I'm nitpicking here a bit but I really don't agree with you when you say "being European does not neccesarily mean being in the EU" I'm afraid that legally speaking it means exactly that.

    Finally, considing yourself to be something doesn't make it so. (there's no shortages of lunatics that genuinely believe they are Napoleon)

    Howard
    The fall of the Ottoman Empire is refered to as the "sick man of Europe" in my history books (A History of the Modern World by Palmer et al and Mastering Modern History by Lowe). I'm studying IB European History EXCLUDING Turkey (that's the offical syllabus title of the course). Btw do you consider Russia to be European?

    Muslim countries are mostly associated with middle eastern countries where Islam is the law. I just wanted to show you the distinction between these countries and Turkey.
    What European country just banned the veil (and other religious stuff) in schools? *cough* France *cough*

    Atatürk had a great influence on on the culture, and contributed to the Eurofication of Turkey. He also gave women the right to vote, get educatons and introduced democracy after the European model of Switzerland and Germany.

    So being in the EU defines being European? MY GOD! Norway isn't European! All these years I thought I was European... Ahh, maybe I'll be someday...

    If Turks feel European we should let them.
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    "Btw do you consider Russia to be European?"

    Well, I certainly consider the Russians to more "european" than the Turks but for fear of contradiction I can't consider them Europeans as they don't hold EU membership which, as I stated earlier, I believe to be the legal requisite for being European.

    "What European country just banned the veil (and other religious stuff) in schools? *cough* France *cough*"

    Nice to see you are studying history. Had you studied politics instead you would know that Chirac banned the veil ONLY from state financed schools because of a strict doctrine of separation of church and state in that country as set out or variously interpreted from the French constitution *cough* *cough*

    "So being in the EU defines being European? MY GOD! Norway isn't European! All these years I thought I was European... Ahh, maybe I'll be someday..."

    You were wrong weren't you? Norway, geographically speaking is as European as France. Legally speaking it's as European as Haiti.

    "If Turks feel European we should let them"

    I'll try this tactic next time I go down to the local INS office in Tampa. "Listen officer......I've been here three years now, and truly I "feel" American........honestly........ I'm a real Steelers fan........love country fried steak........pray we kickass in Iraq.........now can you stop wasting time and grant me citizenship?"

    I'll let you know how I get on.

    Howard
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    *sigh*
    Being in the EU does imply being European, but being European does not imply being in the EU.

    /Nice to see you are studying history. Had you studied politics instead you would know that Chirac banned the veil ONLY from state financed schools because of a strict doctrine of separation of church and state in that country as set out or variously interpreted from the French constitution *cough* *cough*/

    So? It is still banned which you said did not happen in Europe...

    /Norway, geographically speaking is as European as France. Legally speaking it's as European as Haiti./

    Wtf? Now, this is just bull****. If the criterion for being European comes from being in the EU, then did Europe not exist until 1967 (or later depending on how you interpret "EU"). Did British people become European in 1973?
    Where do you draw the line? Is a EEA country European? Or does it have to have the full membership?

    /I'll try this tactic next time I go down to the local INS office in Tampa. "Listen officer......I've been here three years now, and truly I "feel" American........honestly........ I'm a real Steelers fan........love country fried steak........pray we kickass in Iraq.........now can you stop wasting time and grant me citizenship?"/

    That's irrelevant and not what I am talking about at all. A more suitable example would be Blacks in the US calling themselves African-American. Will you deny them the African part, claiming that if they were born in America they are Americans and not Africans although they may feel cultural and historical belonging to Africa?
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    "Being in the EU does imply being European, but being European does not imply being in the EU"

    Don't agree. How can you say that being in the EU doesn't imply being European? Can you name me an EU member that is not European? Duh!

    "So? It is still banned which you said did not happen in Europe..."

    Can't you read? I said that banning certain clothes in public isn't very European and I stand by that argument. They are banned from State schools in France for constitutional reasons. They are not banned from any other "public places"

    /Norway, geographically speaking is as European as France. Legally speaking it's as European as Haiti./

    Wtf? Now, this is just bull****. If the criterion for being European comes from being in the EU, then did Europe not exist until 1967 (or later depending on how you interpret "EU"). Did British people become European in 1973?

    Why can you not understand the difference between a geographical Europe and a legal Europe? The British have been geographically a part of Europe since Europe was first named Europe. Legally, I'd say 1973 and not 1967 when Britain joined the EEC which was merely a trading block.

    "That's irrelevant and not what I am talking about at all. A more suitable example would be Blacks in the US calling themselves African-American. Will you deny them the African part, claiming that if they were born in America they are Americans and not Africans although they may feel cultural and historical belonging to Africa?"

    Irrelevent? An accusation of irrelevence from someone who, against all odds, has managed to bring Black America into a tete-a-tete about Turkey being a part of Europe. That's rich indeed!

    I think a debate on the issue of double-barrelled Americans is a bit remote to the issue of whether Turkey is a part of Europe. Don't you?

    Howard
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    (Original post by Howard)
    "Being in the EU does imply being European, but being European does not imply being in the EU"

    Don't agree. How can you say that being in the EU doesn't imply being European? Can you name me an EU member that is not European? Duh!

    Howard
    Can YOU read?!? I said being in the EU /does/ imply being European.
    (A implies B but B does not imply A).

    I'm questioning your ability to use analogies as well. Immigration in the US is irrelevant to Turkey being European or not, however the exampe of African-Americans would be more suitable as it deals with ethnical/cultural identity which is what we are discussing here (or so I thought).

    And how about EEA countries? Are they "legally" european?
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    (Original post by 2776)
    Yes, and I am also stating the fact that we are closer to America than Europe in some sense...so UK is regarded by some is a "state" of the US.
    no your not, just a good vaca spot but you guys come after california, hawaii, florida, and cancun!
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    "Can YOU read?!? I said being in the EU /does/ imply being European.
    (A implies B but B does not imply A)"

    Quite so. Sorry, misread that!

    I'm questioning your ability to use analogies as well. Immigration in the US is irrelevant to Turkey being European or not, however the exampe of African-Americans would be more suitable as it deals with ethnical/cultural identity which is what we are discussing here (or so I thought).

    And I'm questioning your ability to even understand what an analogy is.

    The crux of your argument seems to have been that "If you feel European, then that should suffice the requirement to be European"

    I spoke in similar terms about "feeling" American and wasn't therefore talking about immigration at all but merely using immigration as an expression of analogy.

    It's unfortunate that you took "immigration" so literally and embarrased yourself by showing that you don't even understand the meaning of the word.

    Interesting point you make about African-Americans by suggesting they feel a part of Africa. Why wouldn't they? Most of them have their roots in Africa.

    But, what the hell does that have to do with a Turk feeling European? Turkey does not share a common culture or ethnicity with the remainder of Europe. Period!

    Howard
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    Depends on what you want Europe to be.

    Purely as an ecomomic union, might as well let them in, we'll all benefit from the free trade (are they already members of the EFTA?).

    I personally wouldn't want Turkey to join the EU, as eventually you'll lose any sense of common purpose of identity. Someone else mentioned about Russian being as European as Turkey...where do you draw the line? What about Israel?, for example.

    To be part of Europe you have to consider yourself European (yes, I know plenty of Brits wouldn't meet this) and I don't imagine many Turks doing this, other than seeing it as a way of getting a little richer. I vote no.
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    (Original post by nero076)
    Depends on what you want Europe to be.

    Purely as an ecomomic union, might as well let them in, we'll all benefit from the free trade (are they already members of the EFTA?).

    I personally wouldn't want Turkey to join the EU, as eventually you'll lose any sense of common purpose of identity. Someone else mentioned about Russian being as European as Turkey...where do you draw the line? What about Israel?, for example.

    To be part of Europe you have to consider yourself European (yes, I know plenty of Brits wouldn't meet this) and I don't imagine many Turks doing this, other than seeing it as a way of getting a little richer. I vote no.
    Turkey has been an associate member of the EU since 1963 (well, then it was named EEC), making it the longest associate member. The plan is for it to be fully integrated in the EU. The reason this has not happened sooner is mainly because of disputes with Greece and Cyprus. You can use the Euro everywhere in Turkey. They mainly trade with Europe anyways...

    I'd still say Turkey has more in common with Europe than Asia and the Middle-Eastern countries.

    Howard - what do you mean by saying Norway is not legally European anyways? Is the US not legally North American for instance? I suppose not, but then the term doesn't make much sense anyhow.

    All I'm saying is that you shouldn't deny them an European indentity.
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    (Original post by xAngelx)
    are we talking about a turkey that you eat????
    Lol! Sorry, I had to laugh at that.
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    (Original post by gemgems89)
    Lol! Sorry, I had to laugh at that.
    ditto. That actually made me laugh
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    (Original post by Linda)
    I'm studying IB European History EXCLUDING Turkey (that's the offical syllabus title of the course). them.
    Just to be accurate - the full title is (IB) European history including Russia and excluding Turkey (HL).

    Howard - you like to use the word "legal".
    Do you agree that a thing can either be legal or illegal (there is no middle-term)?
    Then since Norway is not in the EU, is it /illegally/ European?
    I'd say that the term "legally European" is nonsense...
 
 
 
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