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    "Just to be accurate - the full title is (IB) European history including Russia and excluding Turkey (HL)"

    Hmmm.....I wonder why (IB) European History excludes Turkey. Could it be that the author of the schoolbooks you are reading decided that Turkey was not culturally,ethnically, or historically relevent enough to Europe to include it in their various scribblings? I suspect so.

    "Howard - you like to use the word "legal".
    Do you agree that a thing can either be legal or illegal (there is no middle-term)?
    Then since Norway is not in the EU, is it /illegally/ European?
    I'd say that the term "legally European" is nonsense"

    I'll treat that sophomoric and highly pedantic observation with the contempt is deserves.

    Howard
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    (Original post by Howard)
    "Just to be accurate - the full title is (IB) European history including Russia and excluding Turkey (HL)"

    Hmmm.....I wonder why (IB) European History excludes Turkey. Could it be that the author of the schoolbooks you are reading decided that Turkey was not culturally,ethnically, or historically relevent enough to Europe to include it in their various scribblings? I suspect so.

    Howard
    The texbooks are not IB textbooks they include the history of Turkey, the US, Asia... It's just so we know that although we will get exam questions on Europe we will not need to know anything about Turkey.
    The title actually suggests that Turkey is considered belonging to Europe. Otherwise they could have written European history excluding Turkey, the Americas, Africa, Asia (or better yet, list all the countries not in Europe)
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    I DO NOT think Turkey have the right to join Europe until the cyprus problem is resolved. They occupy half of the island illegally and as far as I am concerned, Dektash is a ***.
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    (Original post by misty)
    I DO NOT think Turkey have the right to join Europe until the cyprus problem is resolved. They occupy half of the island illegally and as far as I am concerned, they are barbarians.
    join Europe? :confused:
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    (Original post by Linda)
    join Europe? :confused:
    join EU sorry..
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    (Original post by 2776)
    Yes, and we consider ourselves to be a state of USA.
    no i dont and i never will

    turkey shouldnt be in the eu because it is mostly in asia, it has huge cultural differences and thay are only in ti for our money.

    they will be the biggest but poorest country.
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    (Original post by Ollie)
    no i dont and i never will

    turkey shouldnt be in the eu because it is mostly in asia, it has huge cultural differences and thay are only in ti for our money.

    they will be the biggest but poorest country.
    Well that's not what we were discussing.

    I agree that Turkey shouldn't join the EU (for now). But "not belonging to Europe" is not the reason, rather how they go against the official rules of the EU/don't meet the criteria (then again so does Germany and France, and Greece got in on rather dubvious grounds as well I'd say).
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    Linda, you said that whether Turkey should join the EU was irrelevant because that wasn't what you were discussing. Well in that case your discussion is hardly very interesting, as it in fact is only a question of definition. Are they European because they feel European: depends how you define Europeans. Is Turkey geographically European? Well parts of Turkey is definetly in Europe. For the rest it's really a question of definition (again). Europe doesn't really have a clear georgraphical border to the East and South-East (those mountains in Russia a tiny). If you look at a map it makes more sense to talk about the Eurasian continent. What makes Europe a continent of it's own is rather cultural and historical reasons. So again it's a matter of definition.

    Someone said Turkey wasn't european because it's muslim. Well in that case someone should tell Albania that we've thrown them out of Europe.

    I think the question of EU membership is a lot more interesting. Turkey is a secular country that is steadily improving when it comes to human rights (mostly because they are one day hoping to become part of the EU). If this continues maybe they should one day be accepted? Another very good argument is that a EU membership would take the edge of the argument used by many fundamentalist muslims, that there is a fight between the christian and muslim countries of the war, and that islam and democracy can never be united. This could help avoid the 'clash of civilisations' Huntington warned about in his famous book with that title.

    Well in my opinion, it's necessary to be cynical sometimes, especially when it comes to politics. Turkey is a giant country and would have the largest population in the EU, and could therefore demand the most power. That means less power for everyone else. Also, them being secular and therefore imune to fundamentalist muslims is no longer garanteed. The ruling party in Turkey is now a moderate muslim party, which in itself is not dangerous, but if they were to be challenged by more extreme religious parties, it would be better for all if Turkey weren't a part of the EU. The fact that they're poor is also an argument, however that doesn't really seem to ocupy European politicians, as they never hesitated to include countries in Eastern Europe who treatened to become future finacial burdens.
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    Sorry Haakon, I was just bored and wanted to argue about /something/ and then this American kid comes along and says that Turkey isn't European...
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    I think that geographically speaking, europe should be confined to the urals in the east, and turkey in the south, and maybe georgia/"that area" to the south-east.
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    (Original post by Linda)
    This is taken from the National Anthem thread, which was closed...
    Turkey has more in common with Europe than Asia. Both culturally and historically, at least since the fall of the Ottoman Empire and "the sick man of Europe" (what, of Europe? It was considered European even back then...?).
    Yes, it is a secular state, which it has been since Atatürk, so for quite some time now. You cannot really say that the country is Muslim, as Islam is not the law. Wearing veils in public places such as public universities is forbidden for instance. Atatürk also forced men to wear Western hats instead of the fez, because he wanted Turkey to be European.

    Being European does not neccesarily mean being in the EU. I might as well say that they participate in the European Song Contest and hence they must be European.
    Yes they have a bad human rights record when it comes to the Kurds, but they're not exactly alone in that...

    Besides, they consider themselves to be European (those I know anyways). To quote an Economist cover a while back "Turkey belongs in Europe!"
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    (Original post by Linda)
    This is taken from the National Anthem thread, which was closed...
    Turkey has more in common with Europe than Asia. Both culturally and historically, at least since the fall of the Ottoman Empire and "the sick man of Europe" (what, of Europe? It was considered European even back then...?).
    Yes, it is a secular state, which it has been since Atatürk, so for quite some time now. You cannot really say that the country is Muslim, as Islam is not the law. Wearing veils in public places such as public universities is forbidden for instance. Atatürk also forced men to wear Western hats instead of the fez, because he wanted Turkey to be European.

    Being European does not neccesarily mean being in the EU. I might as well say that they participate in the European Song Contest and hence they must be European.
    Yes they have a bad human rights record when it comes to the Kurds, but they're not exactly alone in that...

    Besides, they consider themselves to be European (those I know anyways). To quote an Economist cover a while back "Turkey belongs in Europe!"
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    Turkey is not a European Country, for many reasons:

    1. Turkey's main land geographically doesn't belong to Europe. Only 4 % of the Turkish territory belongs to Europe. Few use to say that this makes Turkey European country, which is completely wrong. In such a theory, Spain is an Africa country that possesses a small part of land in Africa.
    2. Turkey's religion is Islam. In Europe is Christianity. What's a Muslim country looking among the Christianity ones. When we celebrate New Year, Christmas and Easter what are they going to celebrate? Taking into consideration that Muslin New Year is on 21st of March, and they celebrate neither Christmas nor Easter.
    3. Turkish culture is not European, it is much more closer to the Arabic than to ours.
    4. Turkish language has nothing to do with the Indo European languages.
    5. We should think about terrorism, which is an Islamic fruit. As Turkey being an Islamic country they shall import terror in our continent. We should be much more prudent with Islam in the future. We have enough Muslims in Europe presently we do not want more.

    Conclusion
    Turkey has nothing common to Europe. Definitely Turkey is not a European country , even if joins the European community, people will never be assimilated to the European people, due to many and strong differences.
    Living example, Turks living in Germany, France or UK have been remained Turks, wearing veils, eating on the floor and cannot be integrated into the local communities even after 50 years!!!!
    Turkey (as an Asian country) should join Muslim counties such as Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, and Jordan, creating an Asian Muslim union with identical countries in order to avoid serious problems in the near future.
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    When it comes to the geography, Turkey is definetely a part of Europe, by definition. Europe is a geographic area and the political state or culture in the respective countries do not determine if they are in Europe or not, its the geographical position that matters for that sake. When it comes to the EU and whether Turkey should be given membership I will have to say no at the present. Turkey has several Issues with human rights records, border controlls and instability. Furthermore, I dont quite see why it should be a requirement to be located in Europe to join the free trade union and/or the common currency. For all I care Japan could join the EU if they wanted to. I think adoption into the EU should be based on economical and political evaluations rather than some ancient geographic definitions. Also, someone mentioned the European song contest here. Well, Israel also participates (and Israel is surely not in Europe). There were somme Israely politicians who argued that Israel should apply for EU membership due to the amount of trade between Europe and Israel, however political issues (among them the palestinian conflict) makes this rather unlikely to occur. But in principle, I see no reason why Israel, or Turkey, should not be able to join the EU merely because of their geographic locations.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    When it comes to the geography, Turkey is definetely a part of Europe, by definition. Europe is a geographic area and the political state or culture in the respective countries do not determine if they are in Europe or not, its the geographical position that matters for that sake. When it comes to the EU and whether Turkey should be given membership I will have to say no at the present. Turkey has several Issues with human rights records, border controlls and instability. Furthermore, I dont quite see why it should be a requirement to be located in Europe to join the free trade union and/or the common currency. For all I care Japan could join the EU if they wanted to. I think adoption into the EU should be based on economical and political evaluations rather than some ancient geographic definitions. Also, someone mentioned the European song contest here. Well, Israel also participates (and Israel is surely not in Europe). There were somme Israely politicians who argued that Israel should apply for EU membership due to the amount of trade between Europe and Israel, however political issues (among them the palestinian conflict) makes this rather unlikely to occur. But in principle, I see no reason why Israel, or Turkey, should not be able to join the EU merely because of their geographic locations.
    if israel can join europe, then so should palestine ... its the same land ...
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    No No No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    (Original post by HasanB)
    if israel can join europe, then so should palestine ... its the same land ...
    Is Israel joining Europe? Good God, looks like I'm not watching current affairs closely enough!
 
 
 
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