Proposal that Independent school pupils should pay extra Uni fees

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happysunshine
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Tek)
The money does not necessarily have to come from a tax increase. Even if it did, at least it would be tiered, so you would only pay as much as you could reasonably afford, which is A LOT fairer than penalising people for the type of school they went to.

Under your proposed scheme, in the future, you might see more people deciding to go to state schools to avoid university fees, thus placing MUCH more of a strain on the state system, so state schools would need more funding, which would probably have to come from increased taxes. Hence your scheme is stupid
Well I think that is an excellent idea and that's fair.

I don't want rich kids who go to independent schools to pay more! I'm just saying if I had to choose between the two classes which one had to pay more then I'd choose the richer.

State schools need more funding anyway.
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happysunshine
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#62
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(Original post by Tek)
When you're in an argument, it's not a good idea to admit that you are "biased" and "know little". Doesn't really bode well for your argument, to be honest.
I know! But I'm not confident with my own views or judgements right now - I need to learn a lot more. I'm not intersted in winning as such, I'm here to learn other peoples point of view and the flaws in mine.
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meepmeep
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#63
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(Original post by Tek)
When you're in an argument, it's not a good idea to admit that you are "biased" and "know little". Doesn't really bode well for your argument, to be honest.
Although you must admit that you are liable to be biased as well because you attend an independent school. Would it affect you or your younger siblings (if you have them) directly though? And I thought it was more of a discussion rather than an argument. We're not debating here now, are we?
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Tek
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#64
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(Original post by tagzt)
Case 1: A boarding student from Westminster School (£21,000 fees per year) goes to university. He will most probably be at Oxbridge or a top university. His parents now find they are paying £20,000 less a year to provide their son with a higher level of education than they were before.

Case 2: A state school student goes to university (the total income of his parents is £21,000 a year). Now his parents suddenly find they are having to stretch to pay for their son's university fees, which are the same as another student whose parents are in a completely different financial league.

Now you cannot deny that there is a problem, of course this is taking the two extreme examples. However the principle is simple, why should parents who can afford to send their children to schools where the fees are huge (Westminster is the most expensive, Eton is around £15,000 a year, others can be £10,000 or lower) then suddenly be able to pay a minute fraction of what they were paying for a lower level of education?

Just because you go to an independent school does not make you incredibly wealthy, however it would be quite easy to take into account scholarships/bursary funded students when deciding how much a student should pay. I think there is a massive problem here and think the proposal is certainly along the right lines of trying to solve it.
Firstly Westminster is not the most expensive (and I would know).

Secondly, yes, there is a problem, but it shouldn't be solved by penalising public school children. The government should simply abolish university fees all together - that is the only way to ensure equality for everyone.

And those are very extreme examples, as you say. A lot of this will affect the poorer middle class!
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Tek
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#65
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(Original post by happysunshine)
State schools need more funding anyway.
Well how is your system going to help them get more funding?? Your system will lead to increased middle class use of state schools, thus placing MORE pressure on them! There will be more pupils but with the same amount of funding!

(Original post by meepmeep)
Although you must admit that you are liable to be biased as well because you attend an independent school. Would it affect you or your younger siblings (if you have them) directly though?
No, I have already said that I want to see equality through NO university fees, so I'm hardly biased, am I?
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LH
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#66
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(Original post by tagzt)
Case 1: A boarding student from Westminster School (£21,000 fees per year) goes to university. He will most probably be at Oxbridge or a top university. His parents now find they are paying £20,000 less a year to provide their son with a higher level of education than they were before.

Case 2: A state school student goes to university (the total income of his parents is £21,000 a year). Now his parents suddenly find they are having to stretch to pay for their son's university fees, which are the same as another student whose parents are in a completely different financial league.

Now you cannot deny that there is a problem, of course this is taking the two extreme examples. However the principle is simple, why should parents who can afford to send their children to schools where the fees are huge (Westminster is the most expensive, Eton is around £15,000 a year, others can be £10,000 or lower) then suddenly be able to pay a minute fraction of what they were paying for a lower level of education?

Just because you go to an independent school does not make you incredibly wealthy, however it would be quite easy to take into account scholarships/bursary funded students when deciding how much a student should pay. I think there is a massive problem here and think the proposal is certainly along the right lines of trying to solve it.
But, as you admit, these are extreme examples and it won't just be Westminster students paying this extra money, it will be parents who send their children to much less expensive private schools who are probably not a lot wealthier than the state school parents.
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AT82
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#67
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(Original post by curryADD)
dont the kids with less money get need based grants from the government? i know in america you can get money to go to college if you have a certain gradepoint average, (i think its like a 3.7) and if your parents yearly income level is below a certain point!

works pretty well over here, why dont they just do that for britan?
They do sort of do that but not everything is black and white. Its means tested and means testing dosn't show the full story. Also not everybody gets the grants.

University grants are almost impossible to get unless you live in Scotland.
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happysunshine
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#68
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(Original post by Tek)
Well how is your system going to help them get more funding?? Your system will lead to increased middle class use of state schools, thus placing MORE pressure on them! There will be more pupils but with the same amount of funding!


No, I have already said that I want to see equality through NO university fees, so I'm hardly biased, am I?
I don't have a system! But if my supposed 'system' was put into practice more funding would be needed, but more funding is still needed without it.
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Tek
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#69
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(Original post by happysunshine)
I don't have a system! But if my supposed 'system' was put into practice more funding would be needed, but more funding is still needed without it.
"Your system" as it were refers to the plan to charge independent school students more for their university education.

Under this system, many middle class families might send their children to state schools to avoid the university fees. This will place a greater burdan on state schools because there will be more pupils per place as the middle class students who might previously have gone to private schools take up state places. Hence more funding will be needed, yes.

That system will result in increased taxes (you can't charge people to go to state schools) AND you'll still be charged to go to University!

Without the system, we can still find more funds for university through increases taxes AND still keep the state schools "as they are" ie with LESS pressure on the places. So my idea is better.
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Tek
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#70
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(Original post by happysunshine)
I don't want rich kids who go to independent schools to pay more! I'm just saying if I had to choose between the two classes which one had to pay more then I'd choose the richer.
The rich already pay a huge amount more in taxes and through use of private schools anyway.
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meepmeep
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#71
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(Original post by Tek)
Well how is your system going to help them get more funding?? Your system will lead to increased middle class use of state schools, thus placing MORE pressure on them! There will be more pupils but with the same amount of funding!


No, I have already said that I want to see equality through NO university fees, so I'm hardly biased, am I?
But to continue this line of thought, all university fees would have to be paid for through general taxation. Is it fair to charge people who didn't go to uni for our education?
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happysunshine
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(Original post by Tek)
"Your system" as it were refers to the plan to charge independent school students more for their university education.

Under this system, many middle class families might send their children to state schools to avoid the university fees. This will place a greater burdan on state schools because there will be more pupils per place as the middle class students might previously have gone to private schools. Hence more funding will be needed, yes.

That system will result in increased taxes (you can't charge people to go to state schools) AND you'll still be charged to go to University!

Without the system, we can still find more funds for university through increases taxes AND still keep the state schools as they are ie with LESS pressure on the places.
That's fair enough, I think. The poor rich people may have to pay to send their children to an independent school and then have to pay for University. If they all go to state schools (which I'm not sure if that's what you were suggesting, or where just some people will do to get out of the higher universities fees) they get it much fairer as they don't pay for their 5-18 education but have to pay for their university education like the poorer classes. The richer people get something out of their taxes which is their childrens education, even though they may have to pay a little more in their taxes but it's better than at least 6k a year.

I'm not sure if it's better economically, but morally it is. There is still a big difference between the working class and the upper classes and after all you cannot choose your family you were born into.
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hildabeast
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Personally I think the idea reasonable. If parents have been paying £10000 a year to send their children to independent schools there is no reason why they shouldn't pay the same for their children's university education. If they choose to send them to these kind of schools they should also realise that this cost will extend to university tuition fees. However, I would say that the charge per year should be the same as the yearly charges of the school the student comes from. That way, if the choice is made to send children to these schools, parents should be aware beforehand that if their child goes to university, payment of those fees will be extended over an extra three or four years. That way pupils who go to independent schools on scholarships would not have to pay.

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happysunshine
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(Original post by meepmeep)
But to continue this line of thought, all university fees would have to be paid for through general taxation. Is it fair to charge people who didn't go to uni for our education?
Hmm very good point. Yes and no. I suppose teachers, doctors and nurses etc should get all university fees paid for. I suppose that'd be fair.
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LH
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(Original post by happysunshine)
That's fair enough, I think. The poor rich people may have to pay to send their children to an independent school and then have to pay for University. If they all go to state schools (which I'm not sure if that's what you were suggesting, or where just some people will do to get out of the higher universities fees) they get it much fairer as they don't pay for their 5-18 education but have to pay for their university education like the poorer classes.
You have completely misinterpreted Tek's post.
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LH
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#76
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(Original post by hildabeast)
Personally I think the idea reasonable. If parents have been paying £10000 a year to send their children to independent schools there is no reason why they shouldn't pay the same for their children's university education. If they choose to send them to these kind of schools they should also realise that this cost will extend to university tuition fees. However, I would say that the charge per year should be the same as the yearly charges of the school the student comes from. That way, if the choice is made to send children to these schools, parents should be aware beforehand that if their child goes to university, payment of those fees will be extended over an extra three or four years. That way pupils who go to independent schools on scholarships would not have to pay.

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Why do we want to penalise people just because they didn't use the state system?
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Tek
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#77
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(Original post by meepmeep)
But to continue this line of thought, all university fees would have to be paid for through general taxation. Is it fair to charge people who didn't go to uni for our education?
Well society benefits from university graduates (eg doctors, teachers, etc) so society should pay for them.

(Original post by hildabeast)
Personally I think the idea reasonable. If parents have been paying £10000 a year to send their children to independent schools there is no reason why they shouldn't pay the same for their children's university education.
1) Society benefits from University graduates because we need a skilled workforce. In fact, we need Doctors and teachers, so why should we raise fees, which will restrict Higher education access, when we clearly need these people?

2) It is unfair to tax the middle class any more than they are already. To make any group of people pay more for education is simply morally wrong.

3) Not every middle class family will be able to afford this scheme, so fewer of their children will be going to university. This is wrong because:
a) Education is a basic right and in a developed country our core education should be extended to University.
b) We'll see fewer Doctors and teachers graduating when we need said people.
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happysunshine
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#78
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(Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
You have completely misinterpreted Tek's post.
Well you may think I'm making excuses but my head hurts and I'm too tired to read posts properly. What was he trying to say?
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Tek
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#79
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(Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
You have completely misinterpreted Tek's post.
Yes, I was suggesting that in order to avoid university fees, middle class children may be sent to state schools, which will place pressure on such schools. This is bad.
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AT82
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#80
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(Original post by happysunshine)
Hmm very good point. Yes and no. I suppose teachers, doctors and nurses etc should get all university fees paid for. I suppose that'd be fair.
I think that would be a good idea I think with teachers they have already kind of done it with the bonus you get (worth around £5000) just for completing the training course. So you get your money back at the end (for your first degree as well).

I think the main problem here though is that the government need to stop trying to convince all walks of life to go to university. If a kid is very clever and from a poor area there is a good chance they will go to university anyway, I know loads of working class students. I my uncle went to university in the 1960's and he was a from a council estate living in a 3 bed house sharing with 4 other brothers and sisters.

Too many people are being told to go to university when with some people its clearly not right for them. The universities don't chuck them out because they want their money. Although in this cases its often the local education authorities money. (like in my case).
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