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sazzles
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#181
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#181
If a lifer, who killed say 1 person, is let out and becomes a top surgeon and saves lots of people's lives, surely he/she should have been released.
(purely hypothetical, i know)
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sazzles
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#182
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#182
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Murderers should forgo their rights as humans at the moment when they take away the rights of another human. By wielding such a powerful punishment as the response to murder, society is affirming the value that is placed upon the right to life of the innocent person. Many more innocent people have been killed by released, paroled or escaped murderers than those that have been 'truly reformed'.
Which murderers have been released/paroled and killed again? I can't remember any (not surprising considering my memory)
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Muse
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#183
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#183
(Original post by sazzles)
If a lifer, who killed say 1 person, is let out and becomes a top surgeon and saves lots of people's lives, surely he/she should have been released.
(purely hypothetical, i know)
How do we know what they're going to do when we let them out? I'd be interested to see person with that criminal record go to medical school
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sazzles
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#184
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#184
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Murderers should forgo their rights as humans at the moment when they take away the rights of another human. By wielding such a powerful punishment as the response to murder, society is affirming the value that is placed upon the right to life of the innocent person. Many more innocent people have been killed by released, paroled or escaped murderers than those that have been 'truly reformed'.
I don't believe anything any person does forgoes their fundamental human rights (right to life, right to food/water). Society should not function to punish offenders; it should aim to rehabilitate them so they be integrated back into society
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Muse
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#185
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#185
(Original post by sazzles)
Which murderers have been released/paroled and killed again? I can't remember any (not surprising considering my memory)
There's quite a few documented cases actually. Ross Graham, the 57 year-old "reformed character" who committed a double murder on his wife and her friend after being released from prison (for 'murder') following her cheating on him.
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Muse
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#186
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#186
(Original post by sazzles)
I don't believe anything any person does forgoes their fundamental human rights (right to life, right to food/water). Society should not function to punish offenders; it should aim to rehabilitate them so they be integrated back into society
Yes, yes....quite.
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sazzles
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#187
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#187
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
How do we know what they're going to do when we let them out? I'd be interested to see person with that criminal record go to medical school
Atleast it would be something different on their UCAS application AAAA, BMAT 6.0, 6.5, conviction for 1st degree murder.
They could already have the qualifications, anyway
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sazzles
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#188
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#188
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Yes, yes....quite.
Are you mocking me, perchance?
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Muse
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#189
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#189
(Original post by sazzles)
They could already have the qualifications, anyway
Doesn't mean they can use them, there are organisations doctors have to register with to be able to practice (GMC...). Murder somewhat removes their ability to work in a hospital ever again.
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#190
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#190
(Original post by sazzles)
Are you mocking me, perchance?
No, just pleased you show persistence.
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sazzles
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#191
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#191
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
There's quite a few documented cases actually. Ross Graham, the 57 year-old "reformed character" who committed a double murder on his wife and her friend after being released from prison (for 'murder') following her cheating on him.
I googled Ross Graham, but all I could find was a record producer, chief financial officer, coastguard aviator, a private eye and an Australian primary school teacher. Do you have a link to a news site with the story?
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Muse
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#192
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#192
(Original post by sazzles)
I googled Ross Graham, but all I could find was a record producer, chief financial officer, coastguard aviator, a private eye and an Australian primary school teacher. Do you have a link to a news site with the story?
Lol, you have to watch those australian primary school teachers! I don't have a link but it's an american case back in the 80s that was used in a "pro" argument for the death penalty on panorama.
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sazzles
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#193
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#193
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Doesn't mean they can use them, there are organisations doctors have to register with to be able to practice (GMC...). Murder somewhat removes their ability to work in a hospital ever again.
All considered, it's a pretty useless example of how a reformed murderer could be of benefit. How about if he/she became a fireperson? Or saved some cute child's life? Surely then, in retrospect, letting them out was the right thing to do?
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sazzles
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#194
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#194
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
No, just pleased you show persistence.
I'm nothing if not persistent.
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Muse
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#195
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#195
(Original post by sazzles)
All considered, it's a pretty useless example of how a reformed murderer could be of benefit. How about if he/she became a fireperson? Or saved some cute child's life? Surely then, in retrospect, letting them out was the right thing to do?
Yet again..the criminal record would prevent that from happening. I don't know which surgeons or firemen you've had experiences with, but I'd be interested to hear their colourful life stories.
"Or saved some cute child's life?" That's clutching at straws a bit, isn't it?
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sazzles
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#196
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#196
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Lol, you have to watch those australian primary school teachers! I don't have a link but it's an american case back in the 80s that was used in a "pro" argument for the death penalty on panorama.
If this case was used in a pro argument, they probably would have distorted the facts anyway.
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Muse
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#197
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#197
(Original post by sazzles)
If this case was used in a pro argument, they probably would have distorted the facts anyway.
Yes, because the views in disagreement with yours are bound to be distorted... :rolleyes:. You can even have some of my rep for the "cute child comment". I suppose if the child he saved was ugly, he should be thrown back in jail!
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sazzles
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#198
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#198
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Yet again..the criminal record would prevent that from happening. I don't know which surgeons or firemen you've had experiences with, but I'd be interested to hear their colourful life stories.
"Or saved some cute child's life?" That's clutching at straws a bit, isn't it?
I know there very unrealistic examples, but I'm just trying to show how a reformed lifer could contribute to society if let out. To be fair, your Ross Graham case doesn't have much evidence, as far as I'm concerned (by the way, he also teaches in Aberdeen)
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sazzles
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#199
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#199
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Yes, because the views in disagreement with yours are bound to be distorted... :rolleyes:. You can even have some of my rep for the "cute child comment". I suppose if the child he saved was ugly, he should be thrown back in jail!
I'm distorting, too, that's the name of the game. But if I don't have the facts, I can't undistort and redistort my way, so it's not fair. The vast majority of society clearly places higher value on good looking people, its sad, but true.
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lala
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#200
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#200
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Sorry for the patronising tone, my views are simple - I would only consider bringing back the death penalty if it was shown to produce a reduction in the murder rate. If it did, I would be all for it. However, this is not the case as shown by America. I do think that harsh life imprisonment (as in only basic human requirements met, none of this TV etc.) would create a better image of punishment. This would benifit society in the way as public opinion would be greatened and some people may think twice before murdering someone if they knew what was in store for them for the rest of their life. If this scheme only stopped one person from murdering another then I think it would be worth it.
Without stating that I'm either for or against life imprisonment, some of the arguments you make for it are not very strong.
I dont know what you mean by greatening public opinion, but if you meant it would go along with public opinion- well since when has that necessarily made anywhere a better place? The electorate have a horrible habit of doing stupid things. Also, since murders are to the best of my knowledge more likely to be crimes of passion, then deterrents don't really apply- if someone really flips their lid (and they'd need to do so to some tune if they're going to kill someone) then I have my doubts as to whether they'll stop and think about the consequences.

As for TV- have you ever read Howard Marks autobiography? I'm referring to the descriptions of Terre Haute penitentiary, where he was, which housed mainly lifers with no chance of parole. Now I know he's no criminologist, but bear with me here... basically, he made the point that for inmates who know they have no chance of ever being released, there isn't much that can be done to keep them in order- extra days arent really relevant and prison punishments have to be applied so often that solitary confinement etc become normal. The upshot of it was, this prison full of men who were doing life without chance of parole was impossible to control, and the murder, rape and violence rate was through the roof. Now, this might seem irrelevant but imagine how much harder it would be to keep any semblance of order if inmates had absolutely nothing to entertain and distract them. Boredom would only make it all worse, and if you intend to take away the distractions which pacify possibly violent prisoners on a day to day basis you'd have to have a Plan B for dealing with the fallout. Any ideas?
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