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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Political correctness meaning not using phrases like paki or dirty queer? I would have hoped this wasn't unique to the centre left. And when on earth has further European integration had anything to do with politics to the left of the political centre?
    You know very well that liking for European intergation is mainly now a charactaristic of the centre left. Do you seriously think that the patriotic right ascribes to such notions? And by political correctness I mean bureaucrats making useless laws in the interests of political correctness like removing Bibles from hospital bedsides because it might offend other religions.
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    (Original post by Carl)
    And that's a bad thing? IMO Labour has been very good to the UK.
    European intergation is a bad thing because it dilutes the independance of this nation and centralises power to Brussels. The other two are bad because they involve useless regulation and bureaucracy that no-one outside of Whitehall wants.
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    You know very well that liking for European intergation is mainly now a charactaristic of the centre left.
    Really? Is this in the odd world where Tony Blair is a centre left politician?

    Do you seriously think that the patriotic right ascribes to such notions?
    I don't know about the 'patriotic right' but the right wing parties across Europe have historically been the most integrationist and the more left wing a party the less integrationist.
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    Really? Is this in the odd world where Tony Blair is a centre left politician?
    The new divide in politics leaves Tony Blair in the centre. Before the Thatcher era he would certainly have been regarded as centre right. But politics has moved right wards, so where Tony Blair is about centre. And its the Labour Party, not just Tony Blair, that is Europhile.

    I don't know about the 'patriotic right' but the right wing parties across Europe have historically been the most integrationist and the more left wing a party the less integrationist.
    Across Europe. Not in Britain. Yes, the Conservatives may have taken us into the EU, but only Ted Heath wanted us to become part of a European super state. The vast majority of the Conservative Party and its supporters don't support such stances. And in Britain once you get past the centre the further right you go, the more anti-European you get. Ken Livingstone is a European intergrationist. The centrist parties here are the most Europhile.
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    The new divide in politics
    There in't a new divide. There is one divide other wise left and right labels mean nothing. All 3 main parties in the UK are right of centre.

    And its the Labour Party, not just Tony Blair, that is Europhile.
    The Labour Party has lost its identity. I mean the PLP, Conference and probably most of the membership are all New Labour. It just depends whether some are New Labour out of compromise and modernisation rather than an urge to move right ideologically.

    Across Europe. Not in Britain. Yes, the Conservatives may have taken us into the EU, but only Ted Heath wanted us to become part of a European super state. The vast majority of the Conservative Party and its supporters don't support such stances. And in Britain once you get past the centre the further right you go, the more anti-European you get. Ken Livingstone is a European intergrationist. The centrist parties here are the most Europhile.
    True true. But the idea of a federalist Europe is a right wing one. It just so happens that the British right wing party is far more nationalistic than others due to our history.
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    Left and Right?

    There's a centre, including all the major parties, some of the minor ones, business interests, global corps and finance, MSM, major international orgs like the World Bank, IMF, and soon the UN (naughty wayward son to be Boltonned).

    But often the old left and old right have more in common with each other than with their value-less servile progeny. Serious greens, the religious, patriots, and a whole host of others join them in the beyond-centrist, beyond the pale club.

    The divide is not between L/R - it's between status quo and consolidation of current power structures - and the myriad alternatives.

    Straight, MOR tories are great if you like the way things are or things were as you'd like them, until the status quo is bombed I cannae vote for them.
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    (Original post by Lord Waddell)
    European intergation is a bad thing because it dilutes the independance of this nation and centralises power to Brussels. The other two are bad because they involve useless regulation and bureaucracy that no-one outside of Whitehall wants.
    Ok so I misread the post. Yes OTT political correctness is a bad thing, but I wouldn't necessarily blame Labour so that. I favour promotion of diversity and European integration, so lets not bother getting into a new debate over that.

    You still haven't really shown how Labour have been so bad for the UK.
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    (Original post by Carl)
    Ok so I misread the post. Yes OTT political correctness is a bad thing, but I wouldn't necessarily blame Labour so that. I favour promotion of diversity and European integration, so lets not bother getting into a new debate over that.

    You still haven't really shown how Labour have been so bad for the UK.
    I haven't actually blamed Labour for problems in the UK (at least that wasn't my intention), since so many problems a government can't really do anything about. But the political climate has changed dramatically since the years of Conservative government, and such things as the decimation of the Tory Party in 1997, the removal of hereditary peers from the Lords and basically the whole feel of the country has conspired to form a new elite and establishment. Certainly the establishment is not the same one as it was 40 or 50 years ago.
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    (Original post by Northumbrian)
    There in't a new divide. There is one divide other wise left and right labels mean nothing. All 3 main parties in the UK are right of centre.
    Politics have moved to the right due to the Thatcher era, and the lines demarking centre, right and left have moved somewhat as well. 30 years ago Tony Blair would have been firmly on the right side of the divide. Now, with a new type of economy and a new way of looking at politics altogether, I would say that he is more centrist than anything else.

    The Labour Party has lost its identity. I mean the PLP, Conference and probably most of the membership are all New Labour. It just depends whether some are New Labour out of compromise and modernisation rather than an urge to move right ideologically.
    I doubt that the Labour Party membership is really Blairite. They just put up with Blair's policies (and so many of them have difficulty doing that) since they know that if they moved back to the left all the middle class voters who brought them power in 1997 will flee back into the arms of the Tory Party, or at a pinch the Liberals.

    True true. But the idea of a federalist Europe is a right wing one. It just so happens that the British right wing party is far more nationalistic than others due to our history.
    I think that rightist parties across Europe have also changed after WW2 as compared to before it. Previously, rightist parties were rather like the old Conservative Party - monarchist, religious, militarist etc. Now, since many of those views have been discredited, they had to search for a new identity. European intergration was also born out of fear of the Soviet Union, and the devastation of WW2, both of which threats have vanished. But there are a lot of leftist Euroscpetics, which may have been your point. Benn, Galloway... but they were more numerous previously than now.
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    Politics have moved to the right due to the Thatcher era, and the lines demarking centre, right and left have moved somewhat as well.
    I don't believe the lines ever change. We have our extreme ideologies and we measure things by them. Politics has certainly moved to the right. All main 3 parties are right of centre now. To move the boundaries not only gives the impression that the shift has been smaller than it actually has, but leaves left/right descriptions almost meaningless.

    But there are a lot of leftist Euroscpetics, which may have been your point. Benn, Galloway... but they were more numerous previously than now.
    Like leftists of all descriptions


    I doubt that the Labour Party membership is really Blairite.
    There's a difference between New Labour and Blairite though. I doubt many at all are Blairite but there'l be many Brownites and many of those who identify(ied) with the likes of Mo Mowlam Robin Cook and Clare Short who are all New Labour even if they were so for other reasons than a genuine ideological shift.
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    (Original post by Lord Waddell)
    I haven't actually blamed Labour for problems in the UK (at least that wasn't my intention), since so many problems a government can't really do anything about. But the political climate has changed dramatically since the years of Conservative government, and such things as the decimation of the Tory Party in 1997, the removal of hereditary peers from the Lords and basically the whole feel of the country has conspired to form a new elite and establishment. Certainly the establishment is not the same one as it was 40 or 50 years ago.
    Agreed. I think the Lords should have remained hereditary too.
 
 
 
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