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JSM
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#361
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#361
(Original post by pkonline)
The US still has some sort of welfare state.

Say we didn't have one. Then the rich would be the ones with access to education, health etc and will have plenty to retire on, whereas those on low incomes would have nothing.
is that a problem?
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material breach
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#362
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#362
what is need is a balance like many things between the private and public systems. to much money given to the public systems will led to corruption and inefficency as there is no competition. However to much private health and those who dont have the resources to look after them selves will be left helpless something that should avoid since even if you are rich you could still be done over and fine your self with nothing. An example where private enterprise doesnt work since of its obsestion with cost cutting which often leds to corner cutting is the nuclear industry and railways both have suffered from underinvestment and still need public money despite being run by private enterprises.

I hope this makes this clear that either extreme of totally private system or a totally public system would leave the country worse off and what is needed is a balance.
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LH
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#363
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#363
(Original post by deadflower1984)
I'm not a communist!
Why, then, do you have a hammer and sickle as your avatar?
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happysunshine
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#364
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#364
(Original post by Speciez99)
what is need is a balance like many things between the private and public systems. to much money given to the public systems will led to corruption and inefficency as there is no competition. However to much private health and those who dont have the resources to look after them selves will be left helpless something that should avoid since even if you are rich you could still be done over and fine your self with nothing. An example where private enterprise doesnt work since of its obsestion with cost cutting which often leds to corner cutting is the nuclear industry and railways both have suffered from underinvestment and still need public money despite being run by private enterprises.

I hope this makes this clear that either extreme of totally private system or a totally public system would leave the country worse off and what is needed is a balance.
I agree with that and I think that is what should be practiced
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material breach
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#365
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#365
(Original post by Hannah)
no the basic moral ideas span all religions.
(Original post by JSM)
no, morals are based mainly on christian ideals, where do the modern idea of morals (tend to) first originate. In European countries, based upon christianity. But many religions share huge amounts in common (most including totalitariansim) so it would be partially true to say that.
i think there is some element of untruth in both of these. some basic morals span all religions but certainly not all, and the morals are often believed in for very different reasons.

morals arent based on christian ideals, after all if that was the case china wouldnt have an moral nor would india or pakistan. Hinduism, Islam and the various religions of china certainly didnt come from christianity a realitively recent religion. it could be argueed prehaps that islam came from the jewish faith but that is still a large gap.
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happysunshine
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#366
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#366
(Original post by JSM)
is that a problem?
Of course. Hopefully one day you'll see.
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material breach
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#367
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#367
(Original post by JSM)
is that a problem?
the fact some people have nothing when they retire despite paying taxes all there life, yes it is!
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JSM
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#368
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#368
(Original post by Speciez99)
what is need is a balance like many things between the private and public systems. to much money given to the public systems will led to corruption and inefficency as there is no competition. However to much private health and those who dont have the resources to look after them selves will be left helpless something that should avoid since even if you are rich you could still be done over and fine your self with nothing. An example where private enterprise doesnt work since of its obsestion with cost cutting which often leds to corner cutting is the nuclear industry and railways both have suffered from underinvestment and still need public money despite being run by private enterprises.

I hope this makes this clear that either extreme of totally private system or a totally public system would leave the country worse off and what is needed is a balance.
well even if the only thing left nationalised is the NHS it will cripple the country eventually, add on to that education, law and order, prisons, immigration, asylum, security, the army, their salaries, the money we pay to teh EU. and it looks like we will be crippled over. WHat you have said is what blair has said and i dont think a third way is an alternative. What you have said makes sense but i could not possibly agree with all of it.
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JSM
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#369
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#369
(Original post by Speciez99)
the fact some people have nothing when they retire despite paying taxes all there life, yes it is!
well to you and happysunshine

get rid of taxes and then they can save. It is an increasing circle to remain IMO fair, the more they get, the more taxes they should pay. If they have paid taxes to provide other peoples pensions is that fair? Scrap the welfare state
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happysunshine
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#370
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#370
(Original post by JSM)
well even if the only thing left nationalised is the NHS it will cripple the country eventually, add on to that education, law and order, prisons, immigration, asylum, security, the army, their salaries, the money we pay to teh EU. and it looks like we will be crippled over. WHat you have said is what blair has said and i dont think a third way is an alternative. What you have said makes sense but i could not possibly agree with all of it.
May I ask where you and Howard (a compliment in here!) get all your economic knowledge from? It seems a little harder to pick this kind of knowledge up unlike say politics (or maybe that is just me), yet it all seems very logical.
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pkonline
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#371
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#371
(Original post by JSM)
Because the public sector will get more and more expensive and as such will have to appropriate more and more funds from the private until it is total. Long before which we will have a totalitarian state.
What? I really don't understand this .
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material breach
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#372
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#372
(Original post by JSM)
well even if the only thing left nationalised is the NHS it will cripple the country eventually, add on to that education, law and order, prisons, immigration, asylum, security, the army, their salaries, the money we pay to teh EU. and it looks like we will be crippled over. WHat you have said is what blair has said and i dont think a third way is an alternative. What you have said makes sense but i could not possibly agree with all of it.
The NHS is mismanaged since they decided to introduce managers to run it rather than respected doctors, altho this seems to demonstrate that nationalisation doesnt work, i dont think it does, i think the NHS can work to a satifactiory status and more importantly provide a wider ranges of services to more people than a private system which would prehaps to treatment for only those who could afford it rather than those who need it.

as for the other things i would like to think you can see the sense of having an army rather than none at all or a bunch of mercenaries. the things on your list are crutial to the running of the country and things that the majority of this populations is prepared to pay for.

if it makes sense why dont you agree with it. it after all seems to work for education where we have both private and state schools.
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GH
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#373
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#373
(Original post by happysunshine)
May I ask where you and Howard (a compliment in here!) get all your economic knowledge from? It seems a little harder to pick this kind of knowledge up unlike say politics (or maybe that is just me), yet it all seems very logical.
Howard lives in America, and is like got a proper job. He is hot on law/economy at large.
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pkonline
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#374
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#374
(Original post by JSM)
well to you and happysunshine

get rid of taxes and then they can save. It is an increasing circle to remain IMO fair, the more they get, the more taxes they should pay. If they have paid taxes to provide other peoples pensions is that fair? Scrap the welfare state
What happens to someone who doesn't earn enough to have a good life upon retirement?
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JSM
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#375
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#375
(Original post by Speciez99)
i think there is some element of untruth in both of these. some basic morals span all religions but certainly not all, and the morals are often believed in for very different reasons.

morals arent based on christian ideals, after all if that was the case china wouldnt have an moral nor would india or pakistan. Hinduism, Islam and the various religions of china certainly didnt come from christianity a realitively recent religion. it could be argueed prehaps that islam came from the jewish faith but that is still a large gap.
go to http://www.leaderu.com/wri-table2/morals.html, i uinderstand what you are saying, however, if you compared what people write when asked what their morals are and the tenents of christianity, a lot of those that do not profess christinaity to be their religion follow those morals, rather than those of say Buddhism, not killing another creature is an example.
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material breach
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#376
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#376
(Original post by JSM)
well to you and happysunshine

get rid of taxes and then they can save. It is an increasing circle to remain IMO fair, the more they get, the more taxes they should pay. If they have paid taxes to provide other peoples pensions is that fair? Scrap the welfare state
scrap taxes how are u gonna pay for the army and the salaries of what ever leader you gonna have in your minimalistic system of government or are u gonna have anarchy? personally not something that i would want
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happysunshine
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#377
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#377
(Original post by 2776 2)
Howard lives in America, and is like got a proper job. He is hot on law/economy at large.
How did he get that job?
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JSM
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#378
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#378
(Original post by pkonline)
What happens to someone who doesn't earn enough to have a good life upon retirement?
i dont know, honestly, but i think that the welfare state is the wrong way to go about it. Read F.A. Hayek 's the Road to Serfdom. It is a bit dated (written in 2nd WW) but still amkes good points and sense. Socialism is impossible without control, which will lead to totalitariansim and as someone with some opinions of the classical liberals i can not stand that.
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material breach
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#379
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#379
the website is sponsored by a christian group i think it might just give a bias view (not saying it is, just pointing that fact out)
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GH
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#380
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#380
(Original post by happysunshine)
How did he get that job?
Well he went to uni, and ggot a job in UK, and presumely went to USA to get a good job.
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