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    (Original post by JSM)
    i dont know, honestly, but i think that the welfare state is the wrong way to go about it. Read F.A. Hayek 's the Road to Serfdom. It is a bit dated (written in 2nd WW) but still amkes good points and sense. Socialism is impossible without control, which will lead to totalitariansim and as someone with some opinions of the classical liberals i can not stand that.
    Read Rawl's "A Theory of Justice"
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    (Original post by Speciez99)
    The NHS is mismanaged since they decided to introduce managers to run it rather than respected doctors, altho this seems to demonstrate that nationalisation doesnt work, i dont think it does, i think the NHS can work to a satifactiory status and more importantly provide a wider ranges of services to more people than a private system which would prehaps to treatment for only those who could afford it rather than those who need it.

    .
    surely managers can run things better than doctors and free doctors up to be doctors,.Look at the US. However, the NHS will become less and less affordable. http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/hpcgOutcomes.pdf

    shows a study on medicine although does not have my conclusions (Paul krugman suggests something similar)
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    http://www.clm.org/professors/prof1.html

    before you read the articles look at this link, this is the group who sponsor the website that JSM has just given as a source, it looks pretty evangelical to me and check out that guys chessy grin!
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    (Original post by JSM)
    i dont know, honestly, but i think that the welfare state is the wrong way to go about it. Read F.A. Hayek 's the Road to Serfdom. It is a bit dated (written in 2nd WW) but still amkes good points and sense. Socialism is impossible without control, which will lead to totalitariansim and as someone with some opinions of the classical liberals i can not stand that.
    Well the welfare state is the best system we have. Most people believe in it, sure they may disagree on how much it contributes, but most people tend to agree that when you are on hard times, then you are entitiled to help from your fellow man.
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    (Original post by JSM)
    surely managers can run things better than doctors and free doctors up to be doctors,.Look at the US. However, the NHS will become less and less affordable. http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/hpcgOutcomes.pdf

    shows a study on medicine although does not have my conclusions (Paul krugman suggests something similar)
    IMO the delivery of healthcare is best when people with management skills work hand in hand with people with knowledge of healthcare. We need managers with knowledge of healthcare, and also doctors with management skills.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    We need managers with knowledge of healthcare, and also doctors with management skills.
    Thats asking quite a lot fromt eh doctors.
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    (Original post by 2776 2)
    Thats asking quite a lot from the doctors.
    True but like most modern professions, it needs to be able to adapt to new demands. The whole NHS needs to be geared to delivering the best healthcare for the patient. The doctor needs to know what the manager wants and the manager needs to know what the doctor wants.
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    (Original post by Speciez99)
    http://www.clm.org/professors/prof1.html

    before you read the articles look at this link, this is the group who sponsor the website that JSM has just given as a source, it looks pretty evangelical to me and check out that guys chessy grin!
    hey it was the first link i found, in no way am i evangelical
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    IMO the delivery of healthcare is best when people with management skills work hand in hand with people with knowledge of healthcare. We need managers with knowledge of healthcare, and also doctors with management skills.
    so you believe that doctors should go through a long course to gain experiance and then have to learn another specialisation. Surely if we have a shortage of doctors it makes sense to use the ones that we do have, especially when eu legislation limiting working hours comes in and we have to stop relying on student doctors. We are in big trouble.

    in reply to your second one, thats what conversation is for.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    Well the welfare state is the best system we have. Most people believe in it, sure they may disagree on how much it contributes, but most people tend to agree that when you are on hard times, then you are entitiled to help from your fellow man.
    I would disagree, you should sink or float on your own, however, if i do sink i will float with the aid of the state because it is there and i would be stupid not to take advantage of it. Isn't that a lot of people's oppinions. Plus the minimum wage is stupid becasue people dont want to do some jobs, for which you can earn more.
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    (Original post by kildare)
    Read Rawl's "A Theory of Justice"
    i was jsut looking at some of what he says, some of it looks very well argued and cohesive. However, other parts just look stupid.
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    (Original post by JSM)
    However, other parts just look stupid.
    Such as?
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    (Original post by kildare)
    Such as?
    i havent read the book but what some of the critics were saying poked holes in ti, just do a google search
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    (Original post by JSM)
    i havent read the book but what some of the critics were saying poked holes in ti, just do a google search
    Hmmm ok, I was wondering what you personally disagreed with considering it's unlikely that you'll find a book in the word that is well received by ALL critics.
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    (Original post by kildare)
    Hmmm ok, I was wondering what you personally disagreed with considering it's unlikely that you'll find a book in the word that is well received by ALL critics.
    no, but most of the ones i saw siad there were problems with it. Sumarise what you found to be the key points in the book.
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    (Original post by JSM)
    no, but most of the ones i saw siad there were problems with it. Sumarise what you found to be the key points in the book.
    The general social justice theory really. The idea of inherent advantages/disadvantages and how they must be acknoweldged on the one hand and diminished on the other. The "duty" that the more fortunate members of a society have to the less fortunate. The strong arguement in favour of progressive taxation. The idea that there are "minimum standards" which a society should strive to give to every one of its members.
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    (Original post by kildare)
    The general social justice theory really. The idea of inherent advantages/disadvantages and how they must be acknoweldged on the one hand and diminished on the other. The "duty" that the more fortunate members of a society have to the less fortunate. The strong arguement in favour of progressive taxation. The idea that there are "minimum standards" which a society should strive to give to every one of its members.
    the first part maybe - i dont know what he says
    the duty they have i would disagree with
    progressive taxation - wont work because then no one will want to earn above the amount when it gets ridiculous eg 80% or would move countires or be paid in perks
    minimum standards again disagree with
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    (Original post by JSM)
    so you believe that doctors should go through a long course to gain experiance and then have to learn another specialisation. Surely if we have a shortage of doctors it makes sense to use the ones that we do have, especially when eu legislation limiting working hours comes in and we have to stop relying on student doctors. We are in big trouble.

    in reply to your second one, thats what conversation is for.
    No I don't think drs should go through a long course, just have some smaller understanding of management. Doctors are always leanring and acquiring new skills like IT for the benefit of patient care, why not management too? They do this already in some places. A good delivery of healthcare requires everyone in the team to be able to work together and one of the ways this relationship is made stronger is that each member has some idea about the roles and resposibilties of the rest.

    (Original post by JSM)
    I would disagree, you should sink or float on your own, however, if i do sink i will float with the aid of the state because it is there and i would be stupid not to take advantage of it. Isn't that a lot of people's oppinions. Plus the minimum wage is stupid becasue people dont want to do some jobs, for which you can earn more.
    So you would want the state to help you if you sank but if someone else was sinking you wouldn't bother? I've never heards someone admit to that before. Sure most want to better themseleves but also want others to be able to cope with a basic standard of living.

    A lot of people benefiting from the min wage ie. the lowest paid, would love to earn more and if they could they would. Its not a rich thing to want to better yourself. But some people don't have the skills and can't be trained up with the skills and opportunities to earn more.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    No I don't think drs should go through a long course, just have some smaller understanding of management. Doctors are always leanring and acquiring new skills like IT for the benefit of patient care, why not management too? They do this already in some places. A good delivery of healthcare requires everyone in the team to be able to work together and one of the ways this relationship is made stronger is that each member has some idea about the roles and resposibilties of the rest.

    So you would want the state to help you if you sank but if someone else was sinking you wouldn't bother? I've never heards someone admit to that before. Sure most want to better themseleves but also want others to be able to cope with a basic standard of living.

    A lot of people benefiting from the min wage ie. the lowest paid, would love to earn more and if they could they would. Its not a rich thing to want to better yourself. But some people don't have the skills and can't be trained up with the skills and opportunities to earn more.
    Doctors spend enough time training, i think a small amoutn of cross specialisation is useful but doctors primary job should be the care of their patients. I agree what you say, but in parctice ti keeps them away fro mthe bedside and police officers off the street (same problems).

    No i would not want the state to help me if i sank, but if i sank i would use any mehtods at my disposal to get higher than i was (even as i am doing now). This includes help from the state if they are offering it, although in some cases i would be too proud to accept help. Although in principle i disagree with state help. If it was not there then i would not be able to use it.
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    (Original post by JSM)
    Doctors spend enough time training, i think a small amoutn of cross specialisation is useful but doctors primary job should be the care of their patients. I agree what you say, but in parctice ti keeps them away fro mthe bedside and police officers off the street (same problems).
    Like you say the main thing is patient care and what I'm saying is that a more coordinated approach will deliver this goal. I'm not asking for drs to be shunned into offices etc, a little common sense though will provide a much better system.

    (Original post by JSM)
    No i would not want the state to help me if i sank, but if i sank i would use any mehtods at my disposal to get higher than i was (even as i am doing now). This includes help from the state if they are offering it, although in some cases i would be too proud to accept help. Although in principle i disagree with state help. If it was not there then i would not be able to use it.
    So in priciple you disagree with state help, you think others shouldn't have it, but if you needed it you would have it.

    Erm ok. Sounds like you're sorted then !
 
 
 
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