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    (Original post by Niccolo)
    I'm playing devil's advocate here, but a number of people of strong faith do still do things that can be officially regarded as sinful. Just because they do one of those things condemned by the official scripture of their religion does not mean that they are hypocritical in worshipping full stop. For example, charitable, God-fearing souls may still have pre-marital sex or have been divorced.
    Not a "number of people" EVERYBODY.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Homosexuals are welcome in Christian churches. Sure, there are a few fundamentalist nutcases and oddball independent churches that wouldn't welcome homosexuals but all of the mainline denominations welcome them as worshippers.

    Why is it a religious eyeopener to be told you are a sinner? The Church regards ALL people as sinners.....that's everybody......without exception.
    Ok, but its not as if you can repent being gay, or at least sincerely. How can you consiously sin by having sex with another man and then say sorry, knowing full well your going to sin again. And i know you can argue the pre marital blah blah thing, but again, i just feel that people customise their religion, which to me makes it seem pointless.

    Plus, its an eyeopener, because all secure gay people know that they are not sinners, and are doing nothing wrong to themselves or anyone else. So to be called a sinner makes you question the credibility of that religion
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    Ok, but its not as if you can repent being gay, or at least sincerely. How can you consiously sin by having sex with another man and then say sorry, knowing full well your going to sin again. And i know you can argue the pre marital blah blah thing, but again, i just feel that people customise their religion, which to me makes it seem pointless.
    Well, most sinners experience the same problem. The repent without any real contrition and then go out and do exactly the same thing five minutes later. It's not unique to homosexuals.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Well, most sinners experience the same problem. The repent without any real contrition and then go out and do exactly the same thing five minutes later. It's not unique to homosexuals.
    Well then those people, and homosexuals, shouldnt bother with religion.

    It makes no sense to say sorry and do it again consiously, unless your happy to think that your going to hell
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    If I was gay I wouldn't be Xtian, simple as that. I don't understand why they want to be part of a religion that treats them like that. Xtianity says homosexuality is wrong, homosexuals disagree - bit of a conflict of interests.

    Why do you want to be part of a religion you disagree with the beliefs of?
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    Plus, its an eyeopener, because all secure gay people know that they are not sinners, and are doing nothing wrong to themselves or anyone else. So to be called a sinner makes you question the credibility of that religion
    Well, I think what you mean is that to be secure gay people must by definition reject Christianity.

    I personally feel that one can be secure of oneself and still acknowledge that one is a sinner. I don't think that homosexuals (or anybody else for that matter) needs to abandon religion to feel secure.
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    (Original post by Zoecb)
    If I was gay I wouldn't be Xtian, simple as that. I don't understand why they want to be part of a religion that treats them like that. Xtianity says homosexuality is wrong, homosexuals disagree - bit of a conflict of interests.

    Why do you want to be part of a religion you disagree with the beliefs of?
    Christianity says lots of things are wrong. So what?

    I personally disagree with or find certain aspects of Christian teaching jolly difficult to understand. That doesn't mean I need to run off screaming in the other direction.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Well, I think what you mean is that to be secure gay people must by definition reject Christianity.

    I personally feel that one can be secure of oneself and still acknowledge that one is a sinner. I don't think that homosexuals (or anybody else for that matter) needs to abandon religion to feel secure.
    Yes, but heterosexual 'sinners' who follow religion may genuinely repent (with the honest intention never to do it again) should they do something morally wrong in the short term, for example an act of pre-merital sex etc. A practising homosexual who can be also be described as a practising Christian cannot genuinely repent even if they want to, as what they have done is a fundamental part of them as a human being and they will know full well at the time that they are going to go out and do it again in the near future. I believe that this is what makes the difference.This is why they may feel the need to abandon religion to feel secure.
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    Well then those people, and homosexuals, shouldnt bother with religion.

    It makes no sense to say sorry and do it again consiously, unless your happy to think that your going to hell
    I didn't say they should say sorry with their fingers crossed behind their backs. That's not what biblical repentance is all about.
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    (Original post by Niccolo)
    Yes, but heterosexual 'sinners' who follow religion may genuinely repent should they do something morally wrong in the short term, for example an act of pre-merital sex etc. A practising homosexual who can be also be described as a practising Christian cannot genuinely repent even if they want to, as what they have done is a fundamental part of them as a human being and they will know full well at the time that they are going to go out and do it again in the near future. I believe that this is what makes the difference.This is why they may feel the need to abandon religion to feel secure.
    Well, they may "know full well at the time that they are going to go out and do it again in the near future" But they don't have to. It's their choice.

    It's a fundamental part of an alcoholic to consume alcohol or someone with pedophilic tendencies to desire sex with children. But alcoholics and pedophiles are both sinners nevertheless.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Christianity says lots of things are wrong. So what?

    I personally disagree with or find certain aspects of Christian teaching jolly difficult to understand. That doesn't mean I need to run off screaming in the other direction.
    A religion is a pretty deep and fundamental commitment, where do you go about deciding what and what not to listen to? Is it what is most conveniant to you?

    Some higher being promises you life after death and influence over your time on earth as long as you abide by its rules; so what puts you in a position to decide what your allowed to do sinfully?

    And how can you be secure as a sinner? Well i suppose you can say, i go out and knowingly do bad things, but I still feel good about myself? Is that something we should encourage?
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Well, they may "know full well at the time that they are going to go out and do it again in the near future" But they don't have to. It's their choice.

    It's a fundamental part of an alcoholic to consume alcohol or someone with pedophilic tendencies to desire sex with children. But alcoholics and pedophiles are both sinners nevertheless.
    Yes i see what you're saying, but genuine homosexuals might argue (as some of them have here) that they are homosexual in terms of needing fellowship and love through a homosexual relationship. A dirty paedophile or an alcoholic is surely after only one thing, a short-term 'pleasureable' fix which can (with enough willpower) be resisted). I would probably distinguish along these lines.
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    (Original post by mrcheese)
    A religion is a pretty deep and fundamental commitment, where do you go about deciding what and what not to listen to? Is it what is most conveniant to you?

    Some higher being promises you life after death and influence over your time on earth as long as you abide by its rules; so what puts you in a position to decide what your allowed to do sinfully?

    And how can you be secure as a sinner? Well i suppose you can say, i go out and knowingly do bad things, but I still feel good about myself? Is that something we should encourage?
    I listen to what I believe is the truth. Very often it isn't what I want to hear and is jolly inconvenient. Christianity isn't a convenient religion.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Well, they may "know full well at the time that they are going to go out and do it again in the near future" But they don't have to. It's their choice.

    It's a fundamental part of an alcoholic to consume alcohol or someone with pedophilic tendencies to desire sex with children. But alcoholics and pedophiles are both sinners nevertheless.
    Yes, but if they were following their religion, they would repent, and resist the urges to drink and think about children. That would credit religious forgiveness. But a 'practising homosexual' (so clinical) chooses to sin, so why should they be part of a relion that punishes them as a result?
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    Homosexuality should be tolerated, but not celebrated or promoted.
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    (Original post by Niccolo)
    Yes i see what you're saying, but genuine homosexuals might argue (as some of them have here) that they are homosexual in terms of needing fellowship and love through a homosexual relationship. A dirty paedophile or an alcoholic is surely after only one thing, a short-term 'pleasureable' fix which can (with enough willpower) be resisted). I would probably distinguish along these lines.
    But it's still a fundamental part of them isn't it? I'm sure we could advance a good argument to the effect that pedophiles cannot help having a sexual attraction to children. It's a part of their psyche. But, we would expect them to keep their thoughts to themselves and never act upon them wouldn't we? And we'd regard them as sinners if they failed to do so.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    But it's still a fundamental part of them isn't it? I'm sure we could advance a good argument to the effect that pedophiles cannot help having a sexual attraction to children. It's a part of their psyche. But, we would expect them to keep their thoughts to themselves and never act upon them wouldn't we? And we'd regard them as sinners if they failed to do so.

    Those are totally different because pedophiles force children to commit to sexual acts when they don't want to. Basically you're comparing rape to homosexuality?

    Homosexual acts can be consensual.
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    (Original post by SlyPie)
    Those are totally different because pedophiles force children to commit to sexual acts when they don't want to. Basically you're comparing rape to homosexuality?

    Homosexual acts can be consensual.
    That was not the point he was trying to make.
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    (Original post by Niccolo)
    That was not the point he was trying to make.

    So his point was what? If we want to suppress pedophilia, then why not suppress homosexuality?

    Eighty-percent of pedophiles were abused as children themselves, usually sexually.

    Many homosexuals felt "different' as children, without abuse, due to heredity.

    Those are not comparative.
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    (Original post by SlyPie)
    Those are totally different because pedophiles force children to commit to sexual acts when they don't want to. Basically you're comparing rape to homosexuality?

    Homosexual acts can be consensual.
    WTF?

    Of course I'm not comparing pedophhiles to homosexuals. You fool. That's ridiculous. But, why am I unsurprized to find an intellectual lightweight from Berkeley unable to grasp a simple point; everybody else seems able to.

    Obviously I'm not comparing the sexual activities or conditions under which those activities arise.

    I'm simply stating that being a pedophile is quite probably as natural to a pedophile as being a homosexual is as natural to a homosexual. It's a fundamental part of their psychological make-up

    Please feel free to join the debate when you have something less infantile to add.
 
 
 
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