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Mariam Safe
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#81
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#81
(Original post by atom)
You make out that slavery is simply a "white" vs "black" issue...The slave trade was a dreadful crime against humanity, but not simply as you put it, a crime by "whites" against "blacks".
I’m sorry if it came across that way. If we put what I said in context, first of all you’ve got to understand, the fact we are living in Britain, where the indigenous population so happens to be "white", means that we must consider our history.

I was replying to a poster with an impractical and narrow-minded argument that there should be a programme called "white ambition" to balance the "black ambition" one. She was trying to pitifully intellectualise it, but you can’t intellectualise something without considering the wider context.

As an interesting example, I saw this in a little poster or something.

"The more I learn, the more I get to know, the more. I get to know the more I forget, so why should I learn?".

It sounds like an argument, but it is not because it is critically flawed, as was this posters argument (…you are generally likely to know more if you learn more!),

I was merely pointing out that black people (or any other "non white" people have been oppressed historically. Even after slavery was abolished, racism was socially acceptable (parents always used to joke "God forgot to paint little ****** boys white"). The fact of the matter is that even today black people face a lot a discrimination- just look at the figures. The Law Society, Metropolitan police as well as many other bodies have admitted to institutional racism. There is no denying that if two equally qualified people applied for a (white collar) job, a "non white" person and a "white" person, the later is much more likely to be favoured. Everyone recognises this, and it is the reasoning behind the measures enforced by the government, vilified as "positive discrimation", which is a fallicy in itself because it is quite the opposite; it tries to end discrimination. Our society, perfecting day by day, has decisivly recognised the need to endorse equality because equality is fair, just, good, right and ethical.

Back to the example, if two equally qualified people apply for a job, would choosing the "white" person be acceptable? Lets toss a coin and decide. If the "white" person is picked 95 times out of 100, we have a problem. We need a mechanism to correct this unfairness.

A programme like "black ambition" is not about a "black" versus "white" issue, its not about creating divisions in society and on the contrary, it’s about the non indigenous population’s struggle for a fair society from both a historical and modern day context, thereby closing such divisions.

(Original post by atom)
Would you find a simliar program called Muslim Ambition offensive in this context?

save this for later today, I promise!
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yawn1
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#82
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#82
(Original post by atom)
You make out that slavery is simply a "white" vs "black" issue. This suggest that you know very little about the history of slavery, in particular the history of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The below passage shows how Africans (or "blacks") were also responsible for a large part of the attrocities.

"Between 1450 and the end of the nineteenth century, slaves were obtained from along the west coast of Africa with the full and active co-operation of African kings and merchants. (There were occasional military campaigns organised by Europeans to capture slaves, especially by the Portuguese in what is now Angola, but this accounts for only a small percentage of the total.) In return, the African kings and merchants received various trade goods including beads, cowrie shells (used as money), textiles, brandy, horses, and perhaps most importantly, guns. The guns were used to help expand empires and obtain more slaves, until they were finally used against the European colonisers. The export of trade goods from Europe to Africa forms the first side of the triangular trade."
http://africanhistory.about.com/libr.../aa080601a.htm
Whites were sold into slavery in the 1700/1800's by other whites!
Also, Muslim traders conducted their own slave trade, often forgotten, which accounted for about 5 million slaves than the whole of the trans-Atlanic trade (read the below passage and check out the article if you find this hard to believe). Would you find a simliar program called Muslim Ambition offensive in this context?

"However, Europe did not have a monopoly on slavery. Muslim traders also exported as many as 17 million slaves to the coast of the Indian Ocean, the Middle East, and North Africa."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1523100.stm

My points above do not condone slavery or the trans-atlantic slave trade. The slave trade was a dreadful crime against humanity, but not simply as you put it, a crime by "whites" against "blacks".
I'm sorry to use the generalisations "blacks" and "whites", but I use them only to respond in the context of your argument.
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yawn1
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#83
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#83

Whites were sent to the West Indies during the 18th century to work as slaves for other whites!
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Vienna
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#84
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#84
(Original post by Mariam Safe)
I’m sorry if it came across that way. If we put what I said in context, first of all you’ve got to understand, the fact we are living in Britain, where the indigenous population so happens to be "white", means that we must consider our history.

I was replying to a poster with an impractical and narrow-minded argument
i think youre confusing that poster with yourself.

that there should be a programme called "white ambition" to balance the "black ambition" one. She was trying to pitifully intellectualise it, but you can’t intellectualise something without considering the wider context.
if we live in a society of equality, where we can treat races equally, why cant there be interest in the possiblity of 'white ambition'?
id like to hear why one cannot have 'white ambition' other than your ridiculous and quickly evaporating views on the slave trade, and leftist talk of balancing things up.
intellectualise equality? theres no need, its a simple concept. for some at least.

vilified as "positive discrimation", which is a fallicy in itself because it is quite the opposite; it tries to end discrimination.
so positive discrimination does not discriminate based on race?
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Vienna
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#85
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#85
(Original post by Mariam Safe)
A programme like "black ambition" is not about a "black" versus "white" issue, its not about creating divisions in society and on the contrary, it’s about the non indigenous population’s struggle for a fair society from both a historical and modern day context, thereby closing such divisions.
as i pointed out, i have no problem for a program like black ambition to be shown, but surely 'white ambition', in a fair society, should pose no problems either.
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hitchhiker_13
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#86
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#86
(Original post by Mariam Safe)
Back to the example, if two equally qualified people apply for a job, would choosing the "white" person be acceptable? Lets toss a coin and decide. If the "white" person is picked 95 times out of 100, we have a problem. We need a mechanism to correct this unfairness.

But as roughly 5% of the population are black, then 95% of employees should be not white, but "non-black", in an equal society.
I also think you overestimate institutional racism. I don't deny that it exists, it is just not so widespread. The real problems are much more wide-reaching than that. There is a tiny minority of black students in Cambridge, as the program highlights, but this is evidence for a much wider social problem, which is as much about class as race. The fact remains, (unfair as it is) that a large proportion of the black community is working-class and living in poorer areas with a lower quality of education. This is what needs to be addressed rather than implementing positive discrimination.

P.S.
I agree with you about "White Amibition", but also see Vienna's point. Ideally, neither programme would be neccessary. I had Vienna's same thought a number of years ago (I was probably around 10 or 11 at the time) when I was watching an award show for black public figures - it covered people from Denzel Washington to Kofi Annan. I thought, you couldn't do this with white people, why with blacks?
But the truth is, black people are a minority in this country and have been oppressed and subjected to racism in the past, and to a lesser extent now. This programme is about the added difficulties they face because they are black, or simply the novelty of black faces at Cambridge. If the situation was the same for white people, then "White Ambition" would be commissioned tomorrow. A programme called "Working Class Ambition", I think would be worthwhile.
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Vienna
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#87
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#87
(Original post by jndikum)
It is not really a matter of racial equality. I can understand your point Vienna95, in fact I would be thinking the same if I was white but it is simply but what they are trying to do is encourage blacks to succeed.
the methods employed now to acheive racial equality do more long term damage than good. how can you honestly say that for the rest of your life you can be proud that you needed to rely on social engineering to get anywhere. isnt is disrespectful to assume that you need quotas or special schemes that dont take into account your qualities? how is that equality? racism still exists primarily among an older generation that didnt experience a multi-racial society. instead of having faith in later generations who will grow up recognising equality, you shove discriminatory measures in their face, highlighting differences and among young white people, stirring up a feeling of resentment. as a woman, im possibly subject to similar mechanisms aimed at bringing equality among the sexes. however, how do you explain the oppression women suffered, and the feminist achievements over the last century, to a young lad who sees females as comparably equal? there is still discrimination in todays society, but the sooner we drop the guilt and dependency attitudes, the sooner it will be eradicated.
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bumblebee86
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#88
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(Original post by vienna95)
the methods employed now to acheive racial equality do more long term damage than good. how can you honestly say that for the rest of your life you can be proud that you needed to rely on social engineering to get anywhere. isnt is disrespectful to assume that you need quotas or special schemes that dont take into account your qualities? how is that equality? racism still exists primarily among an older generation that didnt experience a multi-racial society. instead of having faith in later generations who will grow up recognising equality, you shove discriminatory measures in their face, highlighting differences and among young white people, stirring up a feeling of resentment. as a woman, im possibly subject to similar mechanisms aimed at bringing equality among the sexes. however, how do you explain the oppression women suffered, and the feminist achievements over the last century, to a young lad who sees females as comparably equal? there is still discrimination in todays society, but the sooner we drop the guilt and dependency attitudes, the sooner it will be eradicated.
There have been many shows about female ambition.
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bumblebee86
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#89
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#89
(Original post by hitchhiker_13)
But as roughly 5% of the population are black, then 95% of employees should be not white, but "non-black", in an equal society.
I also think you overestimate institutional racism. I don't deny that it exists, it is just not so widespread. The real problems are much more wide-reaching than that. There is a tiny minority of black students in Cambridge, as the program highlights, but this is evidence for a much wider social problem, which is as much about class as race. The fact remains, (unfair as it is) that a large proportion of the black community is working-class and living in poorer areas with a lower quality of education. This is what needs to be addressed rather than implementing positive discrimination.

P.S.
I agree with you about "White Amibition", but also see Vienna's point. Ideally, neither programme would be neccessary. I had Vienna's same thought a number of years ago (I was probably around 10 or 11 at the time) when I was watching an award show for black public figures - it covered people from Denzel Washington to Kofi Annan. I thought, you couldn't do this with white people, why with blacks?
But the truth is, black people are a minority in this country and have been oppressed and subjected to racism in the past, and to a lesser extent now. This programme is about the added difficulties they face because they are black, or simply the novelty of black faces at Cambridge. If the situation was the same for white people, then "White Ambition" would be commissioned tomorrow. A programme called "Working Class Ambition", I think would be worthwhile.
Wow! You're good! You've really considered both sides of the argument. You'd make a good barrister.
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Vienna
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#90
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#90
(Original post by hitchhiker_13)
programme is about the added difficulties they face because they are black, or simply the novelty of black faces at Cambridge. If the situation was the same for white people, then "White Ambition" would be commissioned tomorrow. A programme called "Working Class Ambition", I think would be worthwhile.
is it possible that the so-called lack of success among the black community is due to the fact that they keep being told that 'we have it hard, we are different.' young black men are as uneffected by racial history as young white men, so why lead them to believe that they have inherent disadvantages? it is the older generations of both colour who still have hangups about race. these will last as long as they do. one of the biggest myths about positive discrimination is the idea that it is a 'temporary measure'. something to improve racial equality. id like someone to tell me how you decide when they are no longer needed and more importantly, how such discrimination is meant to ameliorate the feeling of resentment by whites and the feeling of dependency by blacks? racism comes from personal feeling and its consequent opinions that are moulded by society. racism is not a bunch of numbers that politicians can wave on a piece of paper.
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Vienna
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#91
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#91
(Original post by jndikum)
There have been many shows about female ambition.
how many is too many?
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hitchhiker_13
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#92
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#92
(Original post by jndikum)
Wow! You're good! You've really considered both sides of the argument. You'd make a good barrister.

Aww thanks for that. I've got my heart set on physics however!
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bumblebee86
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#93
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(Original post by vienna95)
is it possible that the so-called lack of success among the black community is due to the fact that they keep being told that 'we have it hard, we are different.' young black men are as uneffected by racial history as young white men, so why lead them to believe that they have inherent disadvantages? it is the older generations of both colour who still have hangups about race. these will last as long as they do. one of the biggest myths about positive discrimination is the idea that it is a 'temporary measure'. something to improve racial equality. id like someone to tell me how you decide when they are no longer needed and more importantly, how such discrimination is meant to ameliorate the feeling of resentment by whites and the feeling of dependency by blacks? racism comes from personal feeling and its consequent opinions that are moulded by society. racism is not a bunch of numbers that politicians can wave on a piece of paper.
H!! (hand in air). I'm black. I'm doing very well in school without the need for positive disrimination (medic is September). You make it out as if the entire black population are idiots.
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Vienna
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#94
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#94
(Original post by jndikum)
H!! (hand in air). I'm black. I'm doing very well in school without the need for positive disrimination (medic is September). You make it out as if the entire black population are idiots.
*shakes head*...its about blaming a social situation purely on race and not on other factors as you point out, "but this is evidence for a much wider social problem, which is as much about class as race. The fact remains, (unfair as it is) that a large proportion of the black community is working-class and living in poorer areas with a lower quality of education"


ps. how do you know?
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bumblebee86
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#95
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#95
(Original post by vienna95)
*shakes head*...its about blaming a social situation purely on race and not on other factors as you point out, "but this is evidence for a much wider social problem, which is as much about class as race. The fact remains, (unfair as it is) that a large proportion of the black community is working-class and living in poorer areas with a lower quality of education"


ps. how do you know?
The point you are making has been made several times. Yet, you did not agree with it at the time. Only when the idea is in head of Vienna does she accept its validity.
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hitchhiker_13
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#96
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#96
(Original post by vienna95)
is it possible that the so-called lack of success among the black community is due to the fact that they keep being told that 'we have it hard, we are different.' young black men are as uneffected by racial history as young white men, so why lead them to believe that they have inherent disadvantages? it is the older generations of both colour who still have hangups about race. these will last as long as they do. one of the biggest myths about positive discrimination is the idea that it is a 'temporary measure'. something to improve racial equality. id like someone to tell me how you decide when they are no longer needed and more importantly, how such discrimination is meant to ameliorate the feeling of resentment by whites and the feeling of dependency by blacks? racism comes from personal feeling and its consequent opinions that are moulded by society. racism is not a bunch of numbers that politicians can wave on a piece of paper.

I pretty much agree with you. I don't believe positive discrimination is the way to go about anything either.
I also agree with you when you say that young black people don't suffer from racism so much now, at least not directly. But I would say that they are perhaps still suffering from effects - for example it is true that a high proportion of them live in disadvantaged areas, and a lower percentage of black children have parents who went to university. I think it is these problems which justify the show. I haven't seen it all, but as far as I am aware, it doesn't imply that Cambridge has a racist entrance policy, just that as there are so few blacks, it could be daunting and they will perhaps have a slightly different experience. I suppose it's like the "glass ceiling"- now there is nothing stopping women, but in some cases the male-dominated workplace can still be offputting.
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Vienna
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#97
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(Original post by jndikum)
The point you are making has been made several times.
errrr?
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bumblebee86
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#98
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(Original post by vienna95)
*shakes head*...its about blaming a social situation purely on race and not on other factors as you point out, "but this is evidence for a much wider social problem, which is as much about class as race. The fact remains, (unfair as it is) that a large proportion of the black community is working-class and living in poorer areas with a lower quality of education"


ps. how do you know?
But yes, Vienna, I do understand where you're coming from. Many of my friends have voiced the same opinions. My initial reaction is to argue., but then I have read your posts and some of your opinions do make sense. If I was white, I would think the same too.
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hitchhiker_13
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#99
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(Original post by vienna95)

ps. how do you know?
Is that addressed to me? How do I know what?
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Vienna
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#100
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#100
(Original post by jndikum)
But yes, Vienna, I do understand where you're coming from. Many of my friends have voiced the same opinions. My initial reaction is to argue., but then I have read your posts and some of your opinions do make sense. If I was white, I would think the same too.
but because your black....?
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