This discussion is closed.
Mentally Ill
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#61
Report 16 years ago
#61
(Original post by zoe_catlin)
In response to {Mentally Ill}

...And your condescending response is precisely the reason why I would no longer choose Oxbridge.
Look here madam, my response was not condescending. I said that Oxbridge wouldn't want you because, from the reason YOU gave for not wanting to apply, you obviously do not have one of the main things they are looking for and that is why I said they wouldnt want you. NOT because you are black.

It is somewhat parodoxical that in the first instance you are purporting that Oxbridge is far removed from the stereotypes which I am "wrongly" assigning to it, and then in the same breath you are stating that this obviously elitist institution wouldn't want me anyway.
Yes, I think it is an incorrect stereotype. However, the stereotype you refer to is concerned with racial bias. The reason I gave for them not wanting you was your inability to think for yourself. Where is the paradoxy?

Is Cambridge the only academic instituion within the UK which requires a student to have autonomy of thought?
No, but was your post not about CAMBRIDGE exclusively??? You did say Cambridge didn't you?

You are perpetuating the very myth you are trying to dispel with a statement like that.
Shut up. No I am not. re read my comments and absorb what I am saying.

Moreover, I am not making my judgement solely from watching a one hour documentary, but having visited Cambridge and the colleges. I did not feel comfortable there
To quote your initial post "I was going to apply to Cambridge this year (I am a black british woman), but having watched the documentary, I think not!!" Now, forgive me for being simple, but does this not mean up until the minute you watched the program you were of the opinion that cambridge was suitable for you? And if so, the visits to cambridge you talk about will have been made before watching, right? (or did you magic yourself to Cambridge after the program?). Clearly, from your statement, you suddenly became 'uncomfortable' after you saw the program. How strange that an intelligent person like you would have been comfortable enough to apply before watching a 1 hour documentary, and then not..... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Similarly no matter what you assert, the fact that the only black students at Cambridge seem to be those who have to conform to being like their white, middle class counterparts rather than themselves (evidenced by the fact that you don't have any patois speaking Jamaicans or West Indians or even anyone remotely akin to a Rastafarian - black or white) to me indicates that most Cambridge students are just carbon copies of each other.
You have a fatal flaw honey: does the fact that just because the black people in Cambridge are not patois speaking Jamaicans etc. mean that they conform to being like thier white, middleclass counterparts rather than themselves? (you are rather ignorant, really sorry, but you are)

And guess what? My parents are from TIVOLI GARDENS, JAMAICA. My mother is an Indian from Jamaica and my father is a Jamaican, and yes, I lived in Jamaica as a child, and I went to a school with 6% gcse pass rate. I guess Ill have no problem finding my white middle class counterpart when I get to Cambridge (And what is your bloody hang up with Rastas?? Get over it.)

It is not my role or desire to further the representativeness of any institution. It is the role of the institution to adopt policies and practices which are more than "prima facie" inclusive. How many Black lecturers are there at Cambridge and should this also be my role to redress this
imbalance!!
Silly girl, Oxbridge do not have any policy that exclude black people. (Nor does is have any that exclude rastas). In fact, they have GEEMA. Would you like the tutor the visit your home for tea and plead with you to apply? You may lead the horse to the water, but you cannot force him to drink it.

PS you seem to be concerned about (and from what I can see, disagree with) racism, but at the same time you seem to want to 'represent' rastas. Now that is a paradox (paradoxy? sorry, I dont quite use these kinds of words in general life). The rastafarian religion actively promotes racism....last time I passed the bobocamp (like a worship place for rastas) it was still the case that white people were the devil.

PPS what the hell is a "prima facie"?
0
fishpaste
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#62
Report 16 years ago
#62
What would you think of the following?

Asian students don't fair well in the Oxbridge admissions procedures, because they're more inclined to do the whole 5/6 Alevel thing, straight 100%s etc etc? They go expecting alot of kudos for their exceptional grades, and as always, the system looks straight past them, and tries to find something more. Because many asian students are inclined this way, there is a bit of a stereotype that asian students are good at passing exams but aren't usually good in the tutorial/supervisions system. This stereotype has to be overcome by fresh students, making it harder for them to convince the tutor that they deserve a place.
0
Mentally Ill
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#63
Report 16 years ago
#63
(Original post by fishpaste)
What would you think of the following?

Asian students don't fair well in the Oxbridge admissions procedures, because they're more inclined to do the whole 5/6 Alevel thing, straight 100%s etc etc? They go expecting alot of kudos for their exceptional grades, and as always, the system looks straight past them, and tries to find something more. Because many asian students are inclined this way, there is a bit of a stereotype that asian students are good at passing exams but aren't usually good in the tutorial/supervisions system. This stereotype has to be overcome by fresh students, making it harder for them to convince the tutor that they deserve a place.
Well it depends which Asians you refer to.....Indians fare very well in comparison to pakistanis. This dude posted a link earlier up the thread...you should have a look, it's quite interesting....I thought Orientals did better than any other Asians, but apparently, they dont.
0
fishpaste
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#64
Report 16 years ago
#64
(Original post by Mentally Ill)
Well it depends which Asians you refer to.....Indians fare very well in comparison to pakistanis. This dude posted a link earlier up the thread...you should have a look, it's quite interesting....I thought Orientals did better than any other Asians, but apparently, they dont.
Take pakistanis for example. I heard something about Manchester University taking a bit of an informal bias against pakistani girls applying for medicine, because time after time they could get ridiculously good grades, but couldn't justify their own reasoning when tackling something new, because that didn't fair well with them and their outlook on life.

I will go have a look now.
0
Mentally Ill
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#65
Report 16 years ago
#65
(Original post by fishpaste)
Take pakistanis for example. I heard something about Manchester University taking a bit of an informal bias against pakistani girls applying for medicine, because time after time they could get ridiculously good grades, but couldn't justify their own reasoning when tackling something new, because that didn't fair well with them and their outlook on life.

I will go have a look now.
Do you think it could be a cultural problem? Pakistani girls are percieved to be quite submissive (not neccessarily my opinion, but it is the general thought isnt it????). It is certainly true of the pakistani girls I know. I know that many are brought up not to question elders etc. Perhaps they get nervous at interview and feel as if they are being disrespectul to the tutor? It read something similar to this somewhere (dont remember if it was pakistaini girls though).
0
Mentally Ill
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#66
Report 16 years ago
#66
(Original post by zoe_catlin)
Dear Lord! You're right - don't apply to Cam! You'll probably have a much more representative experience at Durham, Bristol, Warwick or the LSE, cos they are brimming over with dreadlocked black Rastafarians!! And many more black lecturers too!!!

And of course it is quite apparent from what I have just written that I am applying to those institutions, because I clearly wrote that I was applying to LSE, Warwick and Bristol instead!! NOT!! I was kind of thinking of the USA, and not other Russell group universities which also perpetuate the status quo.
I take it that you are not studying Law as your ability to extract facts from what people say is hugely limited!
USA? pul-leeeeeze!!!! Let us now imagine what the USA would have been like if Martin Luther took your attitude.
0
fishpaste
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#67
Report 16 years ago
#67
(Original post by Mentally Ill)
Do you think it could be a cultural problem? Pakistani girls are percieved to be quite submissive (not neccessarily my opinion, but it is the general thought isnt it????). It is certainly true of the pakistani girls I know. I know that many are brought up not to question elders etc. Perhaps they get nervous at interview and feel as if they are being disrespectul to the tutor? It read something similar to this somewhere (dont remember if it was pakistaini girls though).
Well that's what I thought. I had a friend from my college who applied for medicine at Manchester, had her straight As and everything, but in interview she could barely string a sentence together. Bad english unfortunately, "Do you think the NHS is a good thing?" "Yeah I think it is cos the people who can't afford it can like get it free." She didn't get in, got 62 on their points scale, (64 needed for an offer). Point is, another friend, did get in, he's white and has no trouble whatsoever expressing an opinion and justifying it. Although I must admit he does have a very quick brain. Imagine how she'd cope in an Oxbridge interview though! "What do you think of the NHS?" "Why do you think that?" "Yes but why?" "Why?" "Don't you think that actually...?" "Why not?" "Are you sure?" If, as I suspect, and you seem to, they don't appreciate that such an interrogation is a normal part of the process, then they almost definitely won't cope with it and instant rejection for them.
0
Mentally Ill
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#68
Report 16 years ago
#68
(Original post by fishpaste)
Well that's what I thought. I had a friend from my college who applied for medicine at Manchester, had her straight As and everything, but in interview she could barely string a sentence together. Bad english unfortunately, "Do you think the NHS is a good thing?" "Yeah I think it is cos the people who can't afford it can like get it free." She didn't get in, got 62 on their points scale, (64 needed for an offer). Point is, another friend, did get in, he's white and has no trouble whatsoever expressing an opinion and justifying it. Although I must admit he does have a very quick brain. Imagine how she'd cope in an Oxbridge interview though! "What do you think of the NHS?" "Why do you think that?" "Yes but why?" "Why?" "Don't you think that actually...?" "Why not?" "Are you sure?" If, as I suspect, and you seem to, they don't appreciate that such an interrogation is a normal part of the process, then they almost definitely won't cope with it and instant rejection for them.
Yes, but you see once they are in the Oxbridge environment they will soon leave that behind them! I had a conversation with an admissions tutor at OXford, and he said that it is so hard to assess muslim girls because of this culture thing....in his experience he said he admitted one girl who seemed very similar to the girl you talk about, and monitored her through her first month - he noticed that once integrated into the college environment, she was really an outstanding student.
0
fishpaste
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#69
Report 16 years ago
#69
(Original post by Mentally Ill)
Yes, but you see once they are in the Oxbridge environment they will soon leave that behind them! I had a conversation with an admissions tutor at OXford, and he said that it is so hard to assess muslim girls because of this culture thing....in his experience he said he admitted one girl who seemed very similar to the girl you talk about, and monitored her through her first month - he noticed that once integrated into the college environment, she was really an outstanding student.
I can imagine it is hard to assess them, word needs to get out that you need to be constantly thinking critically and analytically, justifying yourself, drawing conclusions etc etc, then have the guts to hold your argument down, whilst being open to new ideas and teaching. All of that is something I learnt with a bit of training, and I'm sure it helped me get my offer. They could learn it to. I do hope that the tutors do know there is a reason for it though, and are nice enough to meet them half way.

What about pakistani boys?
0
fishpaste
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#70
Report 16 years ago
#70
Are there alot of gay people at Oxford/Cambridge?
0
Canada Girl
Badges: 0
#71
Report 16 years ago
#71
(Original post by fishpaste)
Are there alot of gay people at Oxford/Cambridge?
I would like to comment on how impressed I am with this thread. I have been following it the last couple of days and if I get accepted into cam, look forward to studying in an institution where students are open and willing to discuss such complicated and controversial issues.
Now if my college would just send me my acceptance letter... (or anything, for that matter!)
0
Jamie
Badges: 18
#72
Report 16 years ago
#72
(Original post by AdamAbdelAziz)
Just wondering about what people thought about the programme that was just aired on BBC2 following black undergraduates around Cambridge.

Its absoloutely shocking that out of 12 000 undergraduates only 84 are black. unbelievable!!

What does everyone think???
I was talking to my mum tonight, and apparently I was on the programme. Theres an interview by the river, and I go punting past turn and smirk at the camera. Can't remember doing it, but ther we go lol
J
0
Tina
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#73
Report 16 years ago
#73
(Original post by foolfarian)
I was talking to my mum tonight, and apparently I was on the programme. Theres an interview by the river, and I go punting past turn and smirk at the camera. Can't remember doing it, but ther we go lol
J
oooh ur famous
0
crana
Badges:
#74
Report 16 years ago
#74
(Original post by Mentally Ill)
The Cambridge Special Access Scheme is an opportunity for an applicant to bring to the attention of the tutors that this person didnt realise thier full potential at GCSE level because of personal circumstances (ie. death, etc.) at the time of exam.
.
I agree - it would be very disadvantageous were you dead at the time of your exam

:P only joking
0
crana
Badges:
#75
Report 16 years ago
#75
http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/reporter/.../07/table5.pdf

Someone (Think it was Neil) posted this link as the source of data..

Now, I'm not too hot on my stats and I could well be wrong here, but if you look at the top table (2002) and look at the % success rates of people from different racial groups:

with 32% success rate Black Carribean applicants had the highest success rate of all racial groups, and Black african the lowest with 12%.

The samples are stupidly small (38 black carribean applicants vs. 8,592 white)s so the differences might not be taht significant but I still think this is an interesting thing you can see from the table?

It seems, from this at least for black carribean applicants, that teh problem is not so much racism against them in the application process (or why would they have the highest success rate?) but definitely the numver of people applying.....?

rosie

Sorry if i got it wrong
0
Jade
Badges: 0
#76
Report 16 years ago
#76
(Original post by crana)
I agree - it would be very disadvantageous were you dead at the time of your exam

:P only joking
After reading the entire thread, I feel that I can add my opinion.. Personally I think the oxbridge admissions systemis not prejudice nor racist...does it realy matter what colour you skin is, rather you content of character, your potential/ teachability, and willingness to adapt to a new environment. With the attitude that Oxbridge is prejudice, it will certainly not get you far in life. Why can't people accept that Oxbridge are aiming to admit students who they believe will perform well at Oxbridge, rather than just admitting white middle-classes.

It needs t be addressed throughout all schools, that anyone can apply to Cam if they want to...nobody should stop you from aiming for the top, there will be knockbacks in all of our lives, but personally I think this has little to do with our ethnic origin, but more to do with our attitudes, willingness and determination...and that is my honest opinion!!
0
Mentally Ill
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#77
Report 16 years ago
#77
(Original post by Canada Girl)
I would like to comment on how impressed I am with this thread. I have been following it the last couple of days and if I get accepted into cam, look forward to studying in an institution where students are open and willing to discuss such complicated and controversial issues.
Now if my college would just send me my acceptance letter... (or anything, for that matter!)
Sometimes it's the anonymity (sp?) of the forum that allows people to be so open and willing to discuss (although I do hope people are like this at cam!)

I wish your college would get a move on too......had my fingers and toes crossed for bloody ages now. :0
0
Mentally Ill
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#78
Report 16 years ago
#78
(Original post by crana)
http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/reporter/.../07/table5.pdf

Someone (Think it was Neil) posted this link as the source of data..

Now, I'm not too hot on my stats and I could well be wrong here, but if you look at the top table (2002) and look at the % success rates of people from different racial groups:

with 32% success rate Black Carribean applicants had the highest success rate of all racial groups, and Black african the lowest with 12%.

The samples are stupidly small (38 black carribean applicants vs. 8,592 white)s so the differences might not be taht significant but I still think this is an interesting thing you can see from the table?

It seems, from this at least for black carribean applicants, that teh problem is not so much racism against them in the application process (or why would they have the highest success rate?) but definitely the numver of people applying.....?

rosie

Sorry if i got it wrong
I dont think you got it wrong.....however, i think the number is far too small to be significant. One thing that is clear is that applications and success rates from black people (and all other groups inc white) are rising!

But I think you have a really good point, in that how can people claim that tutors are racist when they haven't even been given enough opportunity to exercise their 'racism'!? In fact, as small as the figures are, they could be taken to suggest quite the opposite.
0
crana
Badges:
#79
Report 16 years ago
#79
(Original post by Mentally Ill)
I dont think you got it wrong.....however, i think the number is far too small to be significant. One thing that is clear is that applications and success rates from black people (and all other groups inc white) are rising!

But I think you have a really good point, in that how can people claim that tutors are racist when they haven't even been given enough opportunity to exercise their 'racism'!? In fact, as small as the figures are, they could be taken to suggest quite the opposite.
I thought the difference in success rates between black african and black carribean applicants was interesting. this is probably a really stupid question because all my friends/people i know who are black describe themselves as "afro-carribean" and mainly I think are 3rd or 4th generation down frmo immigrants from the Carribean.. so i would assume they would fall into "black carribean".. I don't think I really know anyone who describes themselves as "african" or whos grandparents etc actually came from africa..so this is why Im asking, and i know its dumb, but are there any really obvious signs/differences between someone whos great grandparents moved here from africa vs the carribean?

really, i am asking, if there's any way that an admissions tutor(say) could tell from your interview whether you were african or carribean black?

Rosie
(white, but normally ticks the "dont want to say" box!)
0
Mentally Ill
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#80
Report 16 years ago
#80
(Original post by crana)
I thought the difference in success rates between black african and black carribean applicants was interesting. this is probably a really stupid question because all my friends/people i know who are black describe themselves as "afro-carribean" and mainly I think are 3rd or 4th generation down frmo immigrants from the Carribean.. so i would assume they would fall into "black carribean".. I don't think I really know anyone who describes themselves as "african" or whos grandparents etc actually came from africa..so this is why Im asking, and i know its dumb, but are there any really obvious signs/differences between someone whos great grandparents moved here from africa vs the carribean?

really, i am asking, if there's any way that an admissions tutor(say) could tell from your interview whether you were african or carribean black?

Rosie
(white, but normally ticks the "dont want to say" box!)
There is no physical difference (although some would disagree!). If either are first generation, then clearly there is a difference in the accent.

However, the only main* noticable difference between a British born African and a British born West Indian is going to be in thier name. West Indians tend to have European names (from the slavery connection), Africans tend to maintain thier African names - although it is not unusual for an AFrican to change their name to an English name before entering the UK. So to address your question, I think there is a good chance the tutor can tell at the the interview.

* with Africans there is always such visible signs as tribal markings. But I have never known of a British born African to take part in that particular custom.
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

University open days

  • University of Cambridge
    Undergraduate Open Day Undergraduate
    Thu, 2 Jul '20
  • University of Cambridge
    Undergraduate Open Day Undergraduate
    Fri, 3 Jul '20

Do you get study leave?

Yes- I like it (444)
58.96%
Yes- I don't like it (42)
5.58%
No- I want it (217)
28.82%
No- I don't want it (50)
6.64%

Watched Threads

View All