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    (Original post by Mentally Ill)
    There is no physical difference (although some would disagree!). If either are first generation, then clearly there is a difference in the accent.

    However, the only main* noticable difference between a British born African and a British born West Indian is going to be in thier name. West Indians tend to have European names (from the slavery connection), Africans tend to maintain thier African names - although it is not unusual for an AFrican to change their name to an English name before entering the UK. So to address your question, I think there is a good chance the tutor can tell at the the interview.

    * with Africans there is always such visible signs as tribal markings. But I have never known of a British born African to take part in that particular custom.
    Hiya
    thanks
    I guessed some of that but I didnt want to assume I can't think why a tutor would want to discriminate particularly against a sub-group of black applicants (unless it was something like - I'm making this up as a guess - most of the carribean applicants came from families that came to the UK wuite a while ago, whereas it happened thta most african applicants came from families that came here more recently, and so tended to have stronger accents/more strongly different culture or something? i dont know just trying to think of possible reasons.......?)

    I think really though it's just the small sample numbers...

    Rosie
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    (Original post by crana)
    Hiya
    thanks
    I guessed some of that but I didnt want to assume I can't think why a tutor would want to discriminate particularly against a sub-group of black applicants (unless it was something like - I'm making this up as a guess - most of the carribean applicants came from families that came to the UK wuite a while ago, whereas it happened thta most african applicants came from families that came here more recently, and so tended to have stronger accents/more strongly different culture or something? i dont know just trying to think of possible reasons.......?)

    I think really though it's just the small sample numbers...

    Rosie


    You're right. There's no reason that, even if the Oxbridge admissions tutors were racist (I believe that the vast majority are not. Obviously there could be a few, but the decision doesn't usually rest solely on one person (?) so I don't think it would be a major influence.) they would be this selective in it. I read a post on here that gave statisitcs that a lower percentage of black students got firsts at Cambridge, something like 5%, compared to I think 15% or over overall with Asians being the highest(going from memory here, may be wrong). This would indicate that there is no racism in the Oxbridge interview system, but you can make statistics prove anything I suppose.

    I think that this is a much wider social issue. Cambridge cannot be blamed for inequality in our society. I'm sure no-one doubts that race has no bearing on ability, but a larger proportion of the black community are from working class backgrounds and have parents without H.E. Therefore I think this is more a class than a racial problem.
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    (Original post by Mentally Ill)
    Sometimes it's the anonymity (sp?) of the forum that allows people to be so open and willing to discuss (although I do hope people are like this at cam!)
    No, I'm just as willing in real life do be drawn into long arguments about politics/education... was discussing top up fees (amongst other things) just tonight whilst watching darts...
    Though I'm sad to inform you that not everyone does, there are a significant number who only focus on their subject and anything beyond that would be drinking/sport/music. Perhaps it comes from being in an opinionated and argumentative family more .


    (Original post by Mentally Ill)
    PPS what the hell is a "prima facie"?
    Superficially; at first inspection.

    Alaric.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    I can imagine it is hard to assess them, word needs to get out that you need to be constantly thinking critically and analytically, justifying yourself, drawing conclusions etc etc, then have the guts to hold your argument down, whilst being open to new ideas and teaching. All of that is something I learnt with a bit of training, and I'm sure it helped me get my offer. They could learn it to. I do hope that the tutors do know there is a reason for it though, and are nice enough to meet them half way.

    What about pakistani boys?
    Well, I have Pakistani parents so I think I can give some input on this. I agree, there is a culture where there children are brought up not to disrespect elders (more muslim than pakistani culture actually, but I suppose everyone has stereotypes) and we're taught not to answer back cheekily if you know what I mean, though its not in the culture to stop children asking other people questions.

    In relation to the interview, I guess they could see it as if they were being disrespectful if they were arguing with the interviewer, though if they had read the interviews at Oxford booklet, then they would have read that they are supposed to show that they can argue their point of view with an interviewer. I did ok and got an offer.
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    (Original post by hitchhiker_13)
    You're right. There's no reason that, even if the Oxbridge admissions tutors were racist (I believe that the vast majority are not. Obviously there could be a few, but the decision doesn't usually rest solely on one person (?) so I don't think it would be a major influence.) they would be this selective in it. I read a post on here that gave statisitcs that a lower percentage of black students got firsts at Cambridge, something like 5%, compared to I think 15% or over overall with Asians being the highest(going from memory here, may be wrong). This would indicate that there is no racism in the Oxbridge interview system, but you can make statistics prove anything I suppose.

    I think that this is a much wider social issue. Cambridge cannot be blamed for inequality in our society. I'm sure no-one doubts that race has no bearing on ability, but a larger proportion of the black community are from working class backgrounds and have parents without H.E. Therefore I think this is more a class than a racial problem.
    Yes, there is a much wider social issue, and you're quite right that Cambridge cannot be blamed for this. But clearly, if this issue is to be resolved, then every institution needs to address the issue. So, arguably, Cambridge is morally obliged to do something about it.

    I am forming the opinion that there is little (or no) racism in the Cambridge admissions system. Firstly, I was accepted and I am an ethnic minority. Secondly, GEEMA encourages applications from ethnic minorities. Thirdly, although statistically insignificant, those figures give us an idea that black (and ethnic minority) applications would be - and have been - just as successful as white applications.

    I guess the biggest 'test' that Cambridge now face is to get more minorities (esp blacks) to apply. So far they are doing well....numbers are increasing.....but people should remember that there will be no massive influx of black applicants over night. And I think Cambridge is on the right road. However, if GEEMA is to be half as successful as they are expected and needed to be, then they will need to work in partnership with 'working class' schools (as this is where most prospective black applicants are)......this then leads us on to wonder whether they should be concentrating more on 'working class' applications than 'ethnic minority' ones?

    *****(am I barking up the wrong tree?)******
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    (Original post by Veedy)
    Well, I have Pakistani parents so I think I can give some input on this. I agree, there is a culture where there children are brought up not to disrespect elders (more muslim than pakistani culture actually, but I suppose everyone has stereotypes) and we're taught not to answer back cheekily if you know what I mean, though its not in the culture to stop children asking other people questions.

    In relation to the interview, I guess they could see it as if they were being disrespectful if they were arguing with the interviewer, though if they had read the interviews at Oxford booklet, then they would have read that they are supposed to show that they can argue their point of view with an interviewer. I did ok and got an offer.
    My observations of muslim women have lead me to believe that they are not 'allowed' to have an opinion different to their husband's. Now I am probably wrong as I have only observed this in a few instances - and I wish not to generalise. However, if you accept this is true, it certainly makes sense that they would have difficulties at interview.

    Yes, they could have read the interview advice, but it must be soooooo difficult to stop thinking in this way after years and years of it - especially when faced within such a stressful situation as an interview with people you have never met before.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    Are there alot of gay people at Oxford/Cambridge?
    I don't know about this, but there is enough to have a gay/lesbian society
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    Are there alot of gay people at Oxford/Cambridge?
    (Original post by Mentally Ill)
    I don't know about this, but there is enough to have a gay/lesbian society
    I'm not aware of any statistics, but there are certainly many homosexuals around, though unlike race it isn't quite as an easy thing to judge. I'm normally fairly oblivious too who is and who isn't to be honest.

    I think most colleges have lesbigay reps or elected officers, there are lesbigay friendly club nights and I think largely discrimination is a non-issue.

    Having said that I believe that Clare last year rejected a proposal to bar drinking societies from our bar after a homophobic incident against one of our students from a member of either the Peterhouse or the Downing drinking society (I forget which). What the college supported instead was support for CUSU's anti-alcoholism campaign, to make the bar lesbigay friendly and to refuse to serve anyone who was being abusive etc. Although not as strong a proposal it was felt is was significantly fairer and a solitary incident needn't produce a disproportionate response, I've been told that it was only opposed by one person.

    Alaric.
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    (Original post by Alaric)
    I'm normally fairly oblivious too who is and who isn't to be honest.
    Do you mean to say you are gay?

    *editted*

    I cannot read I thought this said 'obvious'!!

    *note to self: must learn to read*
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    (Original post by Mentally Ill)
    Do you mean to say you are gay?
    The question may be moot now, but no I didn't, because I'm not

    (Original post by Mentally Ill)
    *editted*

    I cannot read I thought this said 'obvious'!!

    *note to self: must learn to read*
    Yes the ability to read will be useful at Cambridge :rolleyes:

    Alaric.
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    (Original post by Alaric)
    I'm not aware of any statistics, but there are certainly many homosexuals around, though unlike race it isn't quite as an easy thing to judge. I'm normally fairly oblivious too who is and who isn't to be honest.

    I think most colleges have lesbigay reps or elected officers, there are lesbigay friendly club nights and I think largely discrimination is a non-issue.

    Having said that I believe that Clare last year rejected a proposal to bar drinking societies from our bar after a homophobic incident against one of our students from a member of either the Peterhouse or the Downing drinking society (I forget which). What the college supported instead was support for CUSU's anti-alcoholism campaign, to make the bar lesbigay friendly and to refuse to serve anyone who was being abusive etc. Although not as strong a proposal it was felt is was significantly fairer and a solitary incident needn't produce a disproportionate response, I've been told that it was only opposed by one person.

    Alaric.
    I remember that being proposed whilst I was staying in Clare. What was the actual incident? Was it a comment? Or a big fight?
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    (Original post by Alaric)
    The question may be moot now, but no I didn't, because I'm not


    Yes the ability to read will be useful at Cambridge :rolleyes:

    Alaric.
    erm...yes......moot(??) indeed.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    I remember that being proposed whilst I was staying in Clare. What was the actual incident? Was it a comment? Or a big fight?
    I believe it was someone shouting abuse at him. Though it didn't sound very nice, it certainly isn't what one should expect in your own bar. As far as I'm aware there wasn't any fighting involved and I think the student in question was disciplined by his college afterwards.

    (Original post by Mentally Ill)
    erm...yes......moot(??) indeed.
    Insignificant, of no practical relevance.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=moot&r=67

    Alaric.
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    (Original post by Alaric)
    I believe it was someone shouting abuse at him. Though it didn't sound very nice, it certainly isn't what one should expect in your own bar. As far as I'm aware there wasn't any fighting involved and I think the student in question was disciplined by his college afterwards.


    Insignificant, of no practical relevance.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=moot&r=67

    Alaric.
    You do love a dictionary don't you. Are you a student of law of philosophy?
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    (Original post by Alaric)
    I believe it was someone shouting abuse at him. Though it didn't sound very nice, it certainly isn't what one should expect in your own bar. As far as I'm aware there wasn't any fighting involved and I think the student in question was disciplined by his college afterwards.

    Alaric.
    It's hard to imagine people so obnoxious getting into Cambridge in the first place.
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    (Original post by Mentally Ill)
    Are you a student of law of philosophy?
    No, I'm a computer scientist!
    I didn't do English at A-level, and got a B at English language at GCSE. So all in all, I'm not actually very good!

    Alaric.
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    It's hard to imagine people so obnoxious getting into Cambridge in the first place.
    Not really, there's always going to a few people like that around, it's usually easy to ignore them though .
    I think it's probably wise that people aren't assessed on their political beliefs though, and that would be wrong, though I do suggest that people like that stay away from me if they do get in .

    Generally I'm fairly happy with Clare's political climate, though obviously the person who did it wouldn't. Another bonus of the collegiate system I feel.

    Alaric.
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    (Original post by Alaric)
    Not really, there's always going to a few people like that around, it's usually easy to ignore them though .
    I think it's probably wise that people aren't assessed on their political beliefs though, and that would be wrong, though I do suggest that people like that stay away from me if they do get in .

    Generally I'm fairly happy with Clare's political climate, though obviously the person who did it wouldn't. Another bonus of the collegiate system I feel.

    Alaric.
    Well no, I just always thought that anybody intelligent enough to get a place is progressive enough to not be so obnoxious, and so nobody with such beliefs would want to go in the first place. Although of course, with thousands of people, it's not 100%.

    Is it true King's is radical left, in its climate?
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    (Original post by fishpaste)
    Well no, I just always thought that anybody intelligent enough to get a place is progressive enough to not be so obnoxious, and so nobody with such beliefs would want to go in the first place. Although of course, with thousands of people, it's not 100%.
    Well that should be a reasonable assumption, though enough people get through by just having good grades or being highly specialised. There are of course those who do think about society, politics etc and maintain that position, but there are enough that don't bother to think about such things as they regard them as 'boring' or of little significance to themselves.
    It's perhaps best to remember that they aren't actually looking for general intelligence, but potential and aptitude in a specific subject.

    One of the things that surprised me when I came is that not everyone here actually thinks like I do. I seem totally incapable (except during extreme tiredness) of stopping thinking, and thus I'm always considering social interactions/politics/the future etc. I've been told by other people that they don't think like that and they can actually stop thinking about anything. Perhaps that is why I'm interested in having opinions such as politics and they aren't - I don't know.

    But anyway, I've digressed, the other factor is of course alcohol, which brings out excessive imitative behaviour and also what people think but wouldn't usually say for risk of sounding stupid/obnoxious. In short, they either do or don't think it when their sober, but there's no excuse for offending people whilst drunk.

    (Original post by fishpaste)
    Is it true King's is radical left, in its climate?
    As far as I can tell, yes, they had anti-war banners hung from some of the windows on kings' parade, something that I didn't notice from other colleges.

    Alaric.
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    (Original post by crana)
    http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/reporter/.../07/table5.pdf

    Someone (Think it was Neil) posted this link as the source of data..

    Now, I'm not too hot on my stats and I could well be wrong here, but if you look at the top table (2002) and look at the % success rates of people from different racial groups:

    with 32% success rate Black Carribean applicants had the highest success rate of all racial groups, and Black african the lowest with 12%.

    The samples are stupidly small (38 black carribean applicants vs. 8,592 white)s so the differences might not be taht significant but I still think this is an interesting thing you can see from the table?

    It seems, from this at least for black carribean applicants, that teh problem is not so much racism against them in the application process (or why would they have the highest success rate?) but definitely the numver of people applying.....?

    rosie

    Sorry if i got it wrong
    No, you haven't got that wrong. On the whole though it does average out to 16.7% acceptance for black students. (averaging carribean, african and others) Anyway, I agree that getting lots more people to apply is absolutely essential. Hopefully with the help of a good education reaching people in most societies, the associated of poverty with certain races will be alleviated and everyone will be happy. lol
 
 
 
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