Breaking the law Watch

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Robber's ghost
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#1
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Okay, two stories:

Recently around where I live a family was deported due to VISA problems. They had fully integrated with the community they lived in. Their daughter had even got married. Hundreds of people signed a petition and tried to prevent them being thrown out. They failed. The family admitted afterwards that they could easily have dissapeared up north and escaped deportation, but thought they would have a better chance staying wthin the boundaries of the law.

After a long campaign of intimidation a farm that bred guinea pigs for animal research agreed to stop doing so at the end of the year. Protestors had threatened them, thier family and thier friends, and had desecrated a family grave and stolen the remains within. The family had little choice but to give in.

The point of this is that it seems more and more that legitimate protest doesn't get anyone anywhere, whereas illegal activity (including intimidation, vandalism etc) seems to be very effective.

I'm just interested to know what people think about this. Do you think that if legitimate protests were more effective, then people would be less likely to resort to illegal activities? Any other similar stories?
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indy_punk
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The thing is wen u operate within the confinments of a 'legal' form of protest its easier to be put down and ignored however the illegal kind gets more attention and chances are its more radical therefore more effective...for example wen the israeli army tried to get settlers to leave they protested however were defeated....most legal protests are token ones...an effective method of passing a message.
In theory it'd right to say yes if legitimate protests worked then there would be no illegal ones....but the fact of the matter is we may never know
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Lecter
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Well lets wait and see, when those violent protestors for the closure of the guinea pigs for animal research and there families get cancer or other disease and that thier actions has increased the time of the research for that area....who will have the last laugh!!!
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Douglas
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(Original post by Robber's ghost)
The point of this is that it seems more and more that legitimate protest doesn't get anyone anywhere, whereas illegal activity (including intimidation, vandalism etc) seems to be very effective.
Lets put it this way....if you're a white Brit living in the U.S. with an expired passport, and they catch you, they'll pitch you out of the country pronto.

If you're a Mexican, who has sneaked across the border illegally, and they catch you in San Francisco, they'll give you a drivers license, a large book of food stamps, some spending money and a free prescription card.
sherunsaway
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Animal activists, no-matter what they say, are simply terrorists.
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Douglas
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(Original post by sherunsaway)
Animal activists, no-matter what they say, are simply terrorists.
Right on.....not to mention that they're lunatics too.

But I'll fight to the death to preserve their right to lunacy
musicbloke
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One must remember that the law is based on economics and eclecticism rather than some overriding ethical principle.

MB
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Howard
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(Original post by Robber's ghost)
Okay, two stories:

Recently around where I live a family was deported due to VISA problems. They had fully integrated with the community they lived in. Their daughter had even got married. Hundreds of people signed a petition and tried to prevent them being thrown out. They failed. The family admitted afterwards that they could easily have dissapeared up north and escaped deportation, but thought they would have a better chance staying wthin the boundaries of the law.

After a long campaign of intimidation a farm that bred guinea pigs for animal research agreed to stop doing so at the end of the year. Protestors had threatened them, thier family and thier friends, and had desecrated a family grave and stolen the remains within. The family had little choice but to give in.

The point of this is that it seems more and more that legitimate protest doesn't get anyone anywhere, whereas illegal activity (including intimidation, vandalism etc) seems to be very effective.

I'm just interested to know what people think about this. Do you think that if legitimate protests were more effective, then people would be less likely to resort to illegal activities? Any other similar stories?
The family with VISA problems should, all things being equal, have been deported. Just because they peacefully campaign for leave to stay doesn't mean they are entitled to it. The law is the the law even though it is often also an ass. If you fall foul of the law you can rightly expect to pay the consequences.

The animal rights protestors BTW should have been caught and strung up by their goulies IMO.
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Howard
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(Original post by musicbloke)
One must remember that the law is based on economics and eclecticism rather than some overriding ethical principle.

MB
Are you sure? I admit I had to look it up but isn't eclecticism

1 : a theory or practice (as of medicine or psychotherapy) that combines doctrines or methods (as therapeutic procedures) from diverse sources
2 : a system of medicine once popular in the U.S. that depended on plant remedies

Since when did plant remedies and law making become so closely related? :confused:
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anabelle
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(Original post by Howard)
Are you sure? I admit I had to look it up but isn't eclecticism

1 : a theory or practice (as of medicine or psychotherapy) that combines doctrines or methods (as therapeutic procedures) from diverse sources
2 : a system of medicine once popular in the U.S. that depended on plant remedies

Since when did plant remedies and law making become so closely related? :confused:
Eclectic means it takes from various sources. Like eclectic art, for example.
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Howard
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(Original post by anabelle)
Eclectic means it takes from various sources. Like eclectic art, for example.
But eclecticism seems to mean.......


Main Entry: eclec·ti·cism
Pronunciation: -'klek-t&-"siz-&m
Function: noun
1 : a theory or practice (as of medicine or psychotherapy) that combines doctrines or methods (as therapeutic procedures) from diverse sources
2 : a system of medicine once popular in the U.S. that depended on plant remedies
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zooropa
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(Original post by Robber's ghost)
Okay, two stories:

Recently around where I live a family was deported due to VISA problems. They had fully integrated with the community they lived in. Their daughter had even got married. Hundreds of people signed a petition and tried to prevent them being thrown out. They failed. The family admitted afterwards that they could easily have dissapeared up north and escaped deportation, but thought they would have a better chance staying wthin the boundaries of the law.
These people were violating the law though. In that sense, they deserved to be punished.
After a long campaign of intimidation a farm that bred guinea pigs for animal research agreed to stop doing so at the end of the year. Protestors had threatened them, thier family and thier friends, and had desecrated a family grave and stolen the remains within. The family had little choice but to give in.

The point of this is that it seems more and more that legitimate protest doesn't get anyone anywhere, whereas illegal activity (including intimidation, vandalism etc) seems to be very effective.

I'm just interested to know what people think about this. Do you think that if legitimate protests were more effective, then people would be less likely to resort to illegal activities? Any other similar stories?
I don't see how the two situations equate. Animal testing isn't completely illegal in England & Wales. So these protestors are wrong to commit illegal acts to further their own cause.
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anabelle
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(Original post by Howard)
But eclecticism seems to mean.......


Main Entry: eclec·ti·cism
Pronunciation: -'klek-t&-"siz-&m
Function: noun
1 : a theory or practice (as of medicine or psychotherapy) that combines doctrines or methods (as therapeutic procedures) from diverse sources
2 : a system of medicine once popular in the U.S. that depended on plant remedies
Try another dictionary.
For example:
eclectic
adj

1. Said of a style of writing or art, or a set of beliefs: selecting material or ideas from a wide range of sources or authorities.
Thesaurus: diverse, multifarious, varied, divers, many-sided, general, wide-ranging, broad, comprehensive, liberal, catholic, all-embracing; Antonym: narrow.

noun

1. A person who adopts eclectic methods.

Derivative: eclectically
adverb

Derivative: eclecticism
noun

Etymology: 17c: from Greek eklektikos, from ek from + legein to choose.
http://www.allwords.com/query.php?Se...P=1&v=93168213
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Howard
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(Original post by anabelle)
Try another dictionary.
For example:
eclectic
adj

1. Said of a style of writing or art, or a set of beliefs: selecting material or ideas from a wide range of sources or authorities.
Thesaurus: diverse, multifarious, varied, divers, many-sided, general, wide-ranging, broad, comprehensive, liberal, catholic, all-embracing; Antonym: narrow.

noun

1. A person who adopts eclectic methods.

Derivative: eclectically
adverb

Derivative: eclecticism
noun

Etymology: 17c: from Greek eklektikos, from ek from + legein to choose.
http://www.allwords.com/query.php?Se...P=1&v=93168213
Thanks. I'll log that word. I'm sure I'll find it enormously useful.
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L i b
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I don't consider the law to have any bearing on morality. I will not bother trying to follow it except if it agrees with my own morality or that the penalties etc possible are too great. The second point is a bit cowardly I am forced to admit, but the strength of the state is bloody terrifying.

So if I was in a situation where unlawful activity seemed my only solution, roll it on...
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ArthurOliver
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(Original post by LibertineNorth)
I don't consider the law to have any bearing on morality. I will not bother trying to follow it except if it agrees with my own morality or that the penalties etc possible are too great. The second point is a bit cowardly I am forced to admit, but the strength of the state is bloody terrifying.

So if I was in a situation where unlawful activity seemed my only solution, roll it on...
Yup, plenty of daft, even harmful laws we should either ignore, subvert, or fight.
(Original post by sherunsaway)
Animal activists, no-matter what they say, are simply terrorists.
Not all! These specific ones, yes. Terrorism isn't inherent in animal-rights activism.
(Original post by Douglas)
Lets put it this way....if you're a white Brit living in the U.S. with an expired passport, and they catch you, they'll pitch you out of the country pronto.

If you're a Mexican, who has sneaked across the border illegally, and they catch you in San Francisco, they'll give you a drivers license, a large book of food stamps, some spending money and a free prescription card.
Musicbloke: "One must remember that the law is based on economics and eclecticism rather than some overriding ethical principle."

Why Mexicans Make MADD Mad
Jobs Americans Won’t Do? Not Where I Live!
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L i b
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The law no longer has anything significant to say about what is right or good. Most laws these days are put together ad hoc, vary (without inconsistant ones being repealed) on the 'ideology' of the government of the day and concentrate on upholding the interests of certain groups of society (not always the elite).
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