Kilroy Watch

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aliel
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#321
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#321
(Original post by aliel)
:rolleyes: JSM you are now arguing from the other extreme, that of a totalitarian dictatorship. Where there was a monopoly of the media, and incidentally freedom of speech, in the hands of the Nazi state. Have I argued that freedom of speech needs to be absolutely restricted...no i have not. I have simply asked for an acknowledgement of the potential negative repurcussions of ABSOLUTE freedom of speech. That's all.
Oops didnt mean to reply to my own post...silly me!
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JSM
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#322
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#322
(Original post by aliel)
:rolleyes: JSM you are now arguing from the other extreme, that of a totalitarian dictatorship. Where there was a monopoly of the media, and incidentally freedom of speech, in the hands of the Nazi state. Have I argued that freedom of speech needs to be absolutely restricted...no i have not. I have simply asked for an acknowledgement of the potential negative repurcussions of freedom of speech. That's all.
Exaclty thats why you don't give anyone power over freedom of speech. No, i understand what you have argued, sorry if i am not being clear (but i am younger than you ). I acknowledge the potential negative repurcussions of free speech but i would argue that it is outweighed by the potential negative repurcussions if you allow the government/public/anyone to limit free speech.
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JSM
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#323
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#323
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
Nice point - essentially JSM there would be widespread anarchy if there was absolute freedom of speech. However I would ask you to consider the implications of an emergency law to do with terrorism which is being discussed in the Commons. The premise is that in case of emergency the govt. would be able to bypass Parliament and rule the country in a totalitarian way. Do you see this as a way in which the present government could misuse such power? - for instance censorship of newspapers so that terrorists arent given important information etc. Is this not the way the likes of Napoleon and Hitler started out? Freedom of information and freedom of speech are linked to some extent but not exclusively so.
Not widespread anarchy, although as a socialist and therefore espousing a planned state, totalitarianism is better is it? This is strangely reminiscent of the American presidential system hmm, i totally disagree with that, but if it is passed it needs to have a time limit on, of hours/ maximum days. Censorship is restricting freedom of speech as the two are very closely linked, although i accept what you say. However, i do not think that it is right (totally biased of course) that you can shut a group up because obviously more than one person believes in this.
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aliel
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#324
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#324
(Original post by JSM)
Exaclty thats why you don't give anyone power over freedom of speech. No, i understand what you have argued, sorry if i am not being clear (but i am younger than you ). I acknowledge the potential negative repurcussions of free speech but i would argue that it is outweighed by the potential negative repurcussions if you allow the government/public/anyone to limit free speech.
Certainly, more freedom of speech rather than less is more beneficial for society. But you appear to see it in absolute terms. By stating:

"I acknowledge the potential negative repurcussions of free speech but i would argue that it is outweighed by the potential negative repurcussions if you allow the government/public/anyone to limit free speech"

You seem to assume that there can/should only be ABSOLUTE freedom of speech or NO freedom of speech. Surely if you recognise the limits in the assertion for absolute freedom of speech, you would seek to find a more balanced solution?
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Kurdt Morello
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#325
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#325
(Original post by JSM)
Exaclty thats why you don't give anyone power over freedom of speech. No, i understand what you have argued, sorry if i am not being clear (but i am younger than you ). I acknowledge the potential negative repurcussions of free speech but i would argue that it is outweighed by the potential negative repurcussions if you allow the government/public/anyone to limit free speech.
Personally JSM i believe we live in a fairly liberal society where people can express most views thanks to habeus corpus (spelling is a bit variable with me ) but those who are restricted should not feel aggrieved because they know they are spouting nonsense
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JSM
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#326
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#326
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
Personally JSM i believe we live in a fairly liberal society where people can express most views thanks to habeus corpus (spelling is a bit variable with me ) but those who are restricted should not feel aggrieved because they know they are spouting nonsense
well it is getting more restricted although as a socialsit i suppose you like that.
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Kurdt Morello
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#327
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#327
(Original post by JSM)
well it is getting more restricted although as a socialsit i suppose you like that.
sorry to disappoint but I am more middle of the ground although I am slightly left of centre on a lot of issues
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Kurdt Morello
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#328
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#328
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
sorry to disappoint but I am more middle of the ground although I am slightly left of centre on a lot of issues
Actually JSM your point is particularly impotent because socialism does not equate to restrictive government policy - that is right wing/ totalitarian propaganda.
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Kurdt Morello
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#329
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#329
(Original post by JSM)
well it is getting more restricted although as a socialsit i suppose you like that.
Have either of you ever read 1984
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JSM
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#330
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#330
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
Actually JSM your point is particularly impotent because socialism does not equate to restrictive government policy - that is right wing/ totalitarian propaganda.
socialsim does equate to restrictive government policy - hmm most restrictive governments - National Socialist party and the Communist party. Socialism needs planning in order for distribution and planning and freedom don't really go together.
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JSM
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#331
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#331
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
Have either of you ever read 1984
yes, i have although it is also socialistic not just feudalistic.
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aliel
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#332
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#332
(Original post by JSM)
well it is getting more restricted although as a socialsit i suppose you like that.
Well shall i put in more harsher terms? I hope you will not take any offence to this, as I am simply wanting to demonstrate what your proposal would effectively mean. If one was given complete freedom of speech, someone could essentially stand outside your home shouting abuse at you and your family, for this would be only a manifestation of their concept of freedom of speech. Not only would this cause harm and be unfair to you and your family...the very principles and moreover,the spirit of freedom of speech would be grossly undermined.
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Kurdt Morello
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#333
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#333
(Original post by aliel)
Not only would this cause harm and be unfair to you and your family...the very principles and moreover,the spirit of freedom of speech would be grossly undermined.
In fact this would abuse and corrupt the spirit of freedom of speech
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aliel
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#334
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#334
I am now going to get some lunch, all this discussion has made me peckish.
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Kurdt Morello
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#335
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#335
(Original post by JSM)
yes, i have although it is also socialistic not just feudalistic.
Your views are too polarised
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aliel
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#336
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#336
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
In fact this would abuse and corrupt the spirit of freedom of speech
Yep, perhaps you put it slightly in more stronger terms that I did.
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JSM
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#337
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#337
(Original post by aliel)
Well shall i put in more harsher terms? I hope you will not take any offence to this, as I am simply wanting to demonstrate what your proposal would effectively mean. If one was given complete freedom of speech, someone could essentially stand outside your home shouting abuse at you and your family, for this would be only a manifestation of their concept of freedom of speech. Not only would this cause harm and be unfair to you and your family...the very principles and moreover,the spirit of freedom of speech would be grossly undermined.
No offense taken. And i wouldnt take any offense at abuse, just ignore them and theyd get bored. Although i fail to see how the principles freedom of speech would be undermined (i suppose you are a believer in New Liberalism).

"You seem to assume that there can/should only be ABSOLUTE freedom of speech or NO freedom of speech. Surely if you recognise the limits in the assertion for absolute freedom of speech, you would seek to find a more balanced solution?"

i would seek to find a balanced solution, but as with most things there is a danger of a slippery slope i would be more prepared to have it on the Absolute freedom of speech side.
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aliel
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#338
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#338
JSM:
"No offense taken. And i wouldnt take any offense at abuse, just ignore them and theyd get bored."

In no way was i abusing you anyway! Was just showing the practical reality of your opinion.
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aliel
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#339
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#339
JSM:
"i would seek to find a balanced solution"

Only now do you say that, that is what i have been trying to make you accept the need for, for the last hour! Hehe.
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JSM
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#340
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#340
(Original post by aliel)
JSM:
"i would seek to find a balanced solution"

Only now do you say that, that is what i have been trying to make you accept the need for, for the last hour! Hehe.
you skipped out the 2nd part, but i would say Kilroy would be on the side of freedom of speech not abuse. Abuse would be targeted at individuals. I have understood what you have been saying but freedom of speech is needed.
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