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llama boy
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#41
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#41
(Original post by xAngelx)
he has got a point about them all celebrating September 11th did you see them on the news it made me sick that human beings could celebrate the death of thousands
i had exactly the same feeling in pubs in this country when it was announced the wars were starting.
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Stewie
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#42
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#42
(Original post by foolfarian)
Kilroy has just gotten into trouble about a piece he wrote in the Sunday Express (would be the express). It's quite interesting to read, kind of like a literate version of my Grandad...


Mr Kilroy-Silk's piece started: "We are told by some of the more hysterical critics of the war on terror that 'it is destroying the Arab world'. So? Should we be worried about that?"

Mr Kilroy-Silk went on to say that the toppling of despotic regimes in the Middle East should be a war aim, and questioned the contribution of the Arab nations to world welfare and civilisation.

"Apart from oil - which was discovered, is produced and is paid for by the West - what do they contribute? Can you think of anything? Anything really useful?... No, nor can I...

"We're told the the Arabs loathe us. Really?... What do they think we feel about them? That we adore them for the way they murdered more than 3,000 civilians on 11 September and then danced in the hot, dusty streets to celebrate the murders?"

He said Arab nations should be grateful for the aid and technology the West had provided.

"They should go down on their kness and thank God for the munificence of the United States."


While Europe was persecuting every pagan, Jew and anyone else not Catholic considered as "heretics" in their thousands during one Inquisition after another for centuries, Muslim scholars were making advances in science, technology, astronomy and medicine that the West could only dream about before the Renaissance. The Muslim emperor Saladin in the Middle Ages even proclaimed that there should be "no bloodshed" against the Jews when after the diaspora many began settling on Arab lands. Thousands of books used to be published from the Arab world before the emergence of fundamentalism, and there is evidence of the study of philosophers such as Plato and Aristotle far before Origen, Augustine and others looked at their works to build modern Christian thought.

Did you know that Edward Jenner of the Small Pox vaccination fame first read about the technique of infecting people with spores of other diseases to build immunity from what Arab doctors were doing? And Flippo Brunelleschi building the largest ever dome for Florence Cathedral without scafolding from engineering ideas Arabs used to build large domes for mosques? The glorious, enormously tall Gothic cathedrals of the Middle ages were only possible thanks to the use of the pointed arch which gave maximum height with minimum outward thrust- guess who used that first? What about "cool" names such as Shakira, Shireen, Aliyah and others which are becoming increasingly popular? Ever wondered where the word "coffee" comes from? Or why croissants exist?

Yes, the Arab world has it's problems, but it has also has a rich past that no amount of Western propaganda can change. The vast majority of Arabs hate the West because they feel "screwed over" and exploited; I think you would to. They don't like America policing the world (the UN is there for a reason) and building bases on their holy Muslim land. But, most Arabs don't hate the Western people themselves; at the end of the day, much of the Koran talks of Jesus and Mary and they do regard Christianity has having good morals and merits which many don't follow. They realise that Westerners are just trying to live thier lives, look after those they care about and learn more about the world just as much as they are. What the West could use is a little more spirituality
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Tina
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#43
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#43
(Original post by Stewie)
While Europe was ....
v.good points....maybe we should send them to kilroy!
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hattori
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#44
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#44
interesting point stewie but...

(Original post by Stewie)

What about "cool" names such as Shakira, Shireen, Aliyah and others which are becoming increasingly popular? Ever wondered where the word "coffee" comes from? Or why croissants exist?

...did you have to include this bit? Not exactly the greatest gifts to the human kind is it, a couple of interesting names, a word and croissants

Sadly I don't think we 'westerners' (I hate that term) appreciate what they've done for our planet. But I also think the average person on the 'arab street' is getting fed alot of crap by there own governments blaming everything on the US. The governments are blaming the US because they themselves, not the US, have failed to give their population what they deserve.

The region has slipped from the great civilisation you described and the governments want to solely blame that on the 'west' by bringing up every single wrong that has been done to them since history began. And that, sadly, makes every arab feel a victim.

I don't know what you mean by


(Original post by Stewie)

They realise that Westerners are just trying to live thier lives, look after those they care about and learn more about the world just as much as they are. What the West could use is a little more spirituality
seems like a bit of a condtradiction.

and also, the un don't really do a good job of policing the world and the fact is someone has to. but that's another story.
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Vienna
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#45
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(Original post by Iluvatar)
Well, may i ask what contribution Mr Kilroy made to society, apart from this uninformed, and totally racist piece of... well, i wouldn't like to say what its a piece of, but i think you all get the point!
How can this sort of thing be published?
because its his opinion and its not racist?

"despotic, barbarous and corrupt Arab states" were populated by "suicide bombers", "limb amputators" and "women repressers".

sounds on the mark to me.

"George Bush and Tony Blair have a nerve. They have bombed Afghanistan to smithereens in the cause of the war against terrorism. They intend to take the fight to Iraq as soon as they are ready to bring about a 'change of regime'. They have put all other 'rogue states' harbouring terrorists on notice that military action will be taken. And the Pentagon has asked Congress to provide Donald Rumsfeld with $90 million to finance the war against international terrorism in other countries.

"Yet, when Israel goes after suicide bombers who have murdered and maimed hundreds of Israelis in the past few weeks, Bush and Blair tell Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to withdraw from the West Bank 'immediately without delay'.

"Israel cannot be blamed for defending herself. No democratic government could stand by while its citizens were being murdered without attempting to destroy the infrastructure of terrorism. Arafat had eight years to do that and he failed.

Once again, a pretty consistent viewpoint Mr.Kilroy-Silk...
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Nafisa
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#46
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#46
I always thought Kilroy was a nice man....oh well you think you know somebody and they just turn
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Bigcnee
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#47
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(Original post by vienna95)
because its his opinion and its not racist?
You're opinion of racism is not inline with the modern one.

Maybe fifty years ago this wouldn't be given a second thought. However, in todays (generally more tolerant) society, this kind of abuse cannot be tolerated.
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kildare
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#48
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#48
"Arabs are inferior"- how is this view anything other than racist?
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kildare
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#49
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#49
Hmmm, I'm not getting drawn into a "debate" over this. It's racist, xenophobic, jingoistic not to mention incredibly innaccurate lies of the lowest order and I don't even want to give it the respect it doesn't deserve by talking about it.
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Dickie
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#50
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
You're opinion of racism is not inline with the modern one.

Maybe fifty years ago this wouldn't be given a second thought. However, in todays (generally more tolerant) society, this kind of abuse cannot be tolerated.
he was expressing his opinion. And from the excerpt in the first post, it doesnt seem to be racist.

And if todays society is more tolerant, why cant it be tolerant if it was tolerated 50 years ago.

Why are people so touchy about race and nationality?
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Bigcnee
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#51
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(Original post by Dickie)
Why are people so touchy about race and nationality?
Which begs the question:

Why is it an issue for so many people?
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Bigcnee
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#52
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#52
(Original post by Dickie)
And if todays society is more tolerant, why cant it be tolerant if it was tolerated 50 years ago.
This doesn't make much sense.

I was referring to tolerance of cultures.
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kildare
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#53
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#53
(Original post by Dickie)
And if todays society is more tolerant, why cant it be tolerant if it was tolerated 50 years ago.
Errr, this is a bit of a confusing point, what are you advocating other than tolerance of racisim/xenophobia?
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LH
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#54
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#54
(Original post by Bigcnee)
The world could do with less chat-show hosts, and particularly, less Kilroy.
I imagine his position as a columnist is based more on his time as a left-wing firebrand MP.
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Bigcnee
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#55
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(Original post by Lord Huntroyde)
I imagine his position as a columnist is based more on his time as a left-wing firebrand MP.
....and writing for a Tory paper.
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kildare
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#56
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#56
(Original post by Dickie)
Why are people so touchy about race and nationality?
I wouldn't use the word use the word "touchy", but hmmm history does have something to do with it. Things such as slavery and the Holocaust spring to mind for starters. Oh and also: what Bigncee said.
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Vienna
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#57
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(Original post by Stewie)
While Europe was persecuting every pagan, Jew and anyone else not Catholic considered as "heretics" in their thousands during one Inquisition after another for centuries, Muslim scholars were making advances in science, technology, astronomy and medicine that the West could only dream about before the Renaissance.
and?

The Muslim emperor Saladin in the Middle Ages even proclaimed that there should be "no bloodshed" against the Jews when after the diaspora many began settling on Arab lands.
that fell on deaf ears then....

Yes, the Arab world has it's problems, but it has also has a rich past that no amount of Western propaganda can change.
what racist propaganda?

The vast majority of Arabs hate the West because they feel "screwed over" and exploited; I think you would to.
how does that work?

They don't like America policing the world (the UN is there for a reason)
i think every american,israeli and former soviet state is still searching for it.

and building bases on their holy Muslim land.
whos? whos building?

But, most Arabs don't hate the Western people themselves; at the end of the day, much of the Koran talks of Jesus and Mary and they do regard Christianity has having good morals and merits which many don't follow. They realise that Westerners are just trying to live thier lives, look after those they care about and learn more about the world just as much as they are. What the West could use is a little more spirituality
tell that to Abu Mazen and the fanatics that celebrated 9/11, called for the death of every non-believer. To Tariq Ali who wanted to see American soldiers die and Iraqis live in squalor just so we can see the US fail. The West as you so dogmatically put it(i wont say racist) , consists of a democratic and free US that is founded on Christian belief, and Europe, that ended its links with spirituality with the Enlightenment period. Neither is a barbaric, ageing or oppressive. and neither wants to end the world of those who dont believe in the dogmatic fairy tale that holds millions in poverty and fear of their lives.
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JSM
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#58
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#58
(Original post by xAngelx)
he has got a point about them all celebrating September 11th did you see them on the news it made me sick that human beings could celebrate the death of thousands, it shows they dont care for the world out there that would like to help, in away we do we bring them into our country and give them things free. i'm not racist if you think iam but i ashume they are, and people who protested about the war when bush came here were sick individuals as it was just a day after a terrorist attack, and these protesters where protecting them
all - celebating september 11, they were only the ones that got shown in the media because the media reinforces stereotypes and this is what people wanted to see. To know that there was an enemy. 3,000 dead is not that many. I am sorry, but US inaction caused far more deaths in many countires.
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llama boy
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#59
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(Original post by vienna95)
"Yet, when Israel goes after suicide bombers who have murdered and maimed hundreds of Israelis in the past few weeks, Bush and Blair tell Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to withdraw from the West Bank 'immediately without delay'.

"Israel cannot be blamed for defending herself. No democratic government could stand by while its citizens were being murdered without attempting to destroy the infrastructure of terrorism. Arafat had eight years to do that and he failed.
Good to see Qurie's statements signaling a change of direction today.

Soon, crap like this will be no more politically acceptable than the wailings of apartheid-era south africa about "terrorism".
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kildare
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#60
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I presume that people who are referring to the "people dancing in the streets after September 11th" are aware that the pictures that CNN released were later discovered to be pictures of people dancing in celebration of a completely separate event, long before the attacks on the Twin Towers even occurred. And they say there is no such thing as "Western Propaganda"....
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