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mobb_theprequel
But even so - we're an underrepresented minority in UK HE; and this becomes more obvious as you move up the system. "Access", or in other words people being in a position to apply (and applying), is contingent on an institution being receptive to applications (the acid test of which is the ethnic minority student population, at said university). The response of UK HE tends to relate to the former aspect, or in other words, let's make a hullabalo about diversity and access schemes - and say that black people don't apply to us, because they hail from problematic circumstances and think we're not cool. US institutions, by contrast, carry out the former activities - but then actually make good on this rhetoric in their admissions procedures.

but what you are arguing for is still racist, pure and simple.
we do have access schemes for those from poorer backgrounds, but i would certainly vote against any government that deemed it appropriate to make these access schemes 'access - blacks only'
Jamie
WHY SHOULD IT though.
Look at the percentage of american population that is blakc.
compare with UK.

Or how about oxford. you think they should have a dedicated help system for black students. To hell with the asian, chinese, european ones. *******s to them ey? but a special help for the handful of black students.


They could have a Multicultural Affairs Office, or a Minority Students Office. Obviously it's not appropriate to have just a black one given the numbers.

I don't see why you are so antagonistic to my posts b/c often it's totally unjustified. What's with the cursing and anger?
Bismarck
The problem with these diversity programs is that many minorities who get accepted into the top colleges can't pull their load. Colleges like Harvard assume that new students have a relatively high degree of knowledge, and many of the minority students who get into the Ivy leagues due to affirmative action don't have this knowledge. Thus the drop out rate for minorities in the top colleges is much higher than it for whites. The blacks/Hispanics who do succeed at the top colleges would get in anyway (granted there are some exceptions). Plus after two generations of AA (Affirmative Action), there has been little change in the amount of blacks attending the top colleges. The predicted trickle-down (i.e. some blacks/Hispanics go to college, then their children will also go to college and so on) effect never materialized.

I would like to see some evidence produced in support of this, as from what I've ascertained, having read up on this issue on the internet and in publications, the group who aren't pulling their weight are the legacy students - that is primarily WASPs and Jews from wealthy backgrounds.
shady lane
They could have a Multicultural Affairs Office, or a Minority Students Office. Obviously it's not appropriate to have just a black one given the numbers.

I don't see why you are so antagonistic to my posts b/c often it's totally unjustified. What's with the cursing and anger?

caps lock was on lol :redface:

And they do have minorities office - do at cambridge anyway. they also have a minorities officer post on every JCR committee and the university committees.
mobb_theprequel
I would like to see some evidence produced in support of this, as from what I've ascertained, having read up on this issue on the internet and in publications, the group who aren't pulling their weight are the legacy students - that is primarily WASPs and Jews from wealthy backgrounds.


http://www.hooverdigest.org/993/sowell2.html
My precise point is look at who you are.
you are americans. (well you are shady anyway i think!)
the situation is radically different here.

the percentage blakc population is much smaller.
the education level much poorer.

You can have all the schemes you want. if those pupils are rubbish when they leave school/finish GCSEs you are going to have a hell of a job dragging them up to scratch for uni.

half of what you people are tlaking about needs government intervention.
you still havent explained how it is Oxbridge's fault that black students are failed at school.
How can a student officer really do what two full-time administrators can? My uni has
2 administrators for each group (Black, Latino, Asian, Native American, women, LGBT)
1 Office of Multicultural Education
6 community centers for cultural/social activities
4 ethnic theme dorms

So it's pretty rare that minority students just fall through the cracks. And it's a testament to the universities commitment to a diverse range of student experiences that we have so much support. I can't see how it would hurt Oxbridge to consider being more supportive in this way--except of course the lack of £££ they seem to have these days!
Jamie
what you are basically advocating is racism against whites.
now don't get me wrong, in certain arenas i agree with certain discrepancies - like having a couple of female only colleges but no male only.

But to tell a kid who is forma working class background, crummy council estate etc, got straight As against all odds, that he has lost out on his place because although he was a marginally better candidate to this other kid (for the sake of an argument a middle class kid) simply cos the other one was black?

But as you've protested throughout this thread - blacks are so much in the minority, in numerical terms, and perform so much worse than other ethnic groups, that they're but a pinprick on the the educational landscape.

So I don't think that too many white, working class straight-A students will be crying into their pillows at perceived racial injustices, or rather injustice stemming from their race - were such a system to be implemented.
mobb_theprequel
So I don't think that too many white, working class straight-A students will be crying into their pillows at perceived racial injustices, or rather injustice stemming from their race - were such a system to be implemented.


Au contraire, you'll be making racists out of these people.
Jamie
half of what you people are tlaking about needs government intervention.
you still havent explained how it is Oxbridge's fault that black students are failed at school.


It's not. But it should make an active effort to accept highly qualified minorities. When I was at Oxford, there was a visit by a predominantly minority school in London to inspire the students. There were barely any black or Asian students there to show them around and answer questions. So where's the inspiration? There are no whtie kids that would think "I can't get into Oxbridge b/c I'm white." But there are black students who believe that, and a visit to these unis will not dispell that idea at all.

But I think it's just the UK's unwillingness to talk about race or address it. I said in a class on Imperialism at Oxford that colonialism in Africa was partly racially motivated...and the professor said I was wrong! I mean...you could tell he was so uncomfortable even talking about race. I wouldn't expect that kind of person to go about talking about poor minority enrolment at Oxbridge.
Jamie
but what you are arguing for is still racist, pure and simple.
we do have access schemes for those from poorer backgrounds, but i would certainly vote against any government that deemed it appropriate to make these access schemes 'access - blacks only'

Access - and the need for greater diversity - isn't peculiar to the black condition. White people from working class backgrounds, Bangladeshis, some might even reasonably argue LGBT people etc, are all worthy of greater consideration than they are afforded under the present system.

Research has shown that Britain has one of the poorest social mobility profiles in Europe - and education is the foundation for the 99.9999pc of the population who don't have the requisite 'abilities' to knock a piece of leather about for Chelsea. Universities need to change.
shady lane
But I think it's just the UK's unwillingness to talk about race or address it. I said in a class on Imperialism at Oxford that colonialism in Africa was partly racially motivated...and the professor said I was wrong! I mean...you could tell he was so uncomfortable even talking about race. I wouldn't expect that kind of person to go about talking about poor minority enrolment at Oxbridge.


Now that it something I have to see. Given the left wing bias of most professors, I would expect that response if you said the opposite. There isn't a single non-leftist IR professor in LSE. You should definitely apply there. :smile:

mobb_theprequel
Access - and the need for greater diversity - isn't peculiar to the black condition. White people from working class backgrounds, Bangladeshis, some might even reasonably argue LGBT people etc, are all worthy of greater consideration than they are afforded under the present system.

Research has shown that Britain has one of the poorest social mobility profiles in Europe - and education is the foundation for the 99.9999pc of the population who don't have the requisite 'abilities' to knock a piece of leather about for Chelsea. Universities need to change.


Why do you think a poor black person deserves more help from the British government than a poor white person?
Bismarck
Au contraire, you'll be making racists out of these people.

When was the last time Harvard witnessed a race riot?
mobb_theprequel
When was the last time Harvard witnessed a race riot?


You should know better than thinking that all racism is overt. If this person doesn't get into the college of their dreams because of race quotas, do you think they'll return the favor if they're ever in charge of hiring employees?
Bismarck
You should know better than thinking that all racism is overt. If this person doesn't get into the college of their dreams because of race quotas, do you think they'll return the favor if they're ever in charge of hiring employees?

So do you think that a culture of positive discrimination has precipitated a group of ethnic minority-loathing, white middle-managers in the US? The kind of people who would sit in an interview with a black Columbia student and think "fvck you, I had to go to Northwestern because of people like you, now's my time to exact a hasty revenge".

Because I don't.
Bismarck

Why do you think a poor black person deserves more help from the British government than a poor white person?

Here are some statistics a forumite dug up, not so long ago...

Jamie

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4246008.stm
"Only 25% of Afro-carribean students get 5A*-C at GCSE vs 52% national average"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3646146.stm



This last one is REALLY interesting. it looked at degree at cambridge.
"While 21% of white students were awarded first class degrees, only 3.1% of black students were awarded firsts. This compares with 23.7% Indian students and 17.9% Chinese students who scored firsts"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/2770917.stm
mobb_theprequel
So do you think that a culture of positive discrimination has precipitated a group of ethnic minority-loathing, white middle-managers in the US? The kind of people who would sit in an interview with a black Columbia student and think "fvck you, I had to go to Northwestern because of people like you, now's my time to exact a hasty revenge".

Because I don't.


You know, blacks in the US do claim that they get discriminated against in the hiring process. The participation rate (amount of working-age people who are employed) for black males in New York City is 50%, compared to 75% for whites.

mobb_theprequel
Here are some statistics a forumite dug up, not so long ago...


Surely by aiming aid at poor people, a disproportionately high amount will end up going to blacks anyway, so what's the problem? Except this way they will benefit as a result of their socioeconomic status and not their race.
Bismarck
You know, blacks in the US do claim that they get discriminated against in the hiring process. The participation rate (amount of working-age people who are employed) for black males in New York City is 50%, compared to 75% for whites.



Surely by aiming aid at poor people, a disproportionately high amount will end up going to blacks anyway, so what's the problem?

Of course they do. Racism doesn't stop once somebody has their Stanford degree - and it would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Especially given the fact that the hiring process is less objectivised than university admissions procedures - and involves private companies who aren't even obliged to engage in ethnic monitoring. Do you think that the situation vis-a-vis employment for blacks is worse in the US than in the UK? And suppose it were to be the case, do you believe that the main stimulus for racism in the hiring procedure would be to redress the positive discrimination in US schools?
Bismarck

Surely by aiming aid at poor people, a disproportionately high amount will end up going to blacks anyway, so what's the problem?

So it's okay to take in blacks from Hackney and overseas public schools - but screw the rest? I don't see it that way, personally.
mobb_theprequel
Of course they do. Racism doesn't stop once somebody has their Stanford degree - and it would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Especially given the fact that the hiring process is less objectivised than university admissions procedures - and involves private companies who aren't even obliged to engage in ethnic monitoring. Do you think that the situation vis-a-vis employment for blacks is worse in the US than in the UK? And suppose it were to be the case, do you believe that the main stimulus for racism in the hiring procedure would be to redress the positive discrimination in US schools?


The unemployment rate for blacks in Britain is 13%, while that the national average is 5%.

Source

The unemployment rate for blacks in the US is 11%, while for whites it's 5%.

Source

Now take into account the fact that affirmative action has been in effect for 40 years in the US, and tell me how successful it's been.

Do you think a black person should be admitted to college (or get a job) because he's black or because he's poor?

mobb_theprequel
So it's okay to take in blacks from Hackney and overseas public schools - but screw the rest? I don't see it that way, personally.


All other things being equal, why do you think a middle-class black should get a seat at uni over a lower-class white?