University is for the elite.. Watch

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mobb_theprequel
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#201
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#201
(Original post by Bismarck)
The unemployment rate for blacks in Britain is 13%, while that the national average is 5%.

Source

The unemployment rate for blacks in the US is 11%, while for whites it's 5%.

Source

Now take into account the fact that affirmative action has been in effect for 40 years in the US, and tell me how successful it's been.

Do you think a black person should be admitted to college (or get a job) because he's black or because he's poor?



All other things being equal, why do you think a middle-class black should get a seat at uni over a lower-class white?
Surely the stats you've produced are, prima facie, supportive of the existence of affirmative action? But then again, let's not for a moment believe that somebody[regardless of their ethnicity]'s job worries are eradicated once they go to a good university - or that affirmative action is the only reason for the difference between the US black employment statistic and the UK one.

And what is more, would you be content to make an assessment on the effectiveness of affirmative action based solely on the above information? Because I wouldn't - the issue clearly demands more exploration than a simple comparison of (un)employment statistics.
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Bismarck
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#202
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#202
(Original post by mobb_theprequel)
Surely the stats you've produced are, prima facie, supportive of the existence of affirmative action? But then again, let's not for a moment believe that somebody[regardless of their ethnicity]'s job worries are eradicated once they go to a good university - or that affirmative action is the only reason for the difference between the US black employment statistic and the UK one.

And what is more, would you be content to make an assessment on the effectiveness of affirmative action based solely on the above information? Because I wouldn't - the issue clearly demands more exploration than a simple comparison of (un)employment statistics.
Every statistics you look at shows a clear failure of AA. Blacks are half as likely to graduate from high school or college, their income is only 2/3 that of whites, their divorce rate is significantly higher than the national average, and the amount of positions of power that blacks hold is minimal given the fact that they make up 12% of the population. The present approach had 40 years to show results, and it has failed abysmally. A new approach must be tried, instead of sticking to the current one just because it's ideologically appealing.
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shady lane
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#203
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#203
(Original post by Bismarck)
Every statistics you look at shows a clear failure of AA. Blacks are half as likely to graduate from high school or college, their income is only 2/3 that of whites, their divorce rate is significantly higher than the national average, and the amount of positions of power that blacks hold is minimal given the fact that they make up 12% of the population. The present approach had 40 years to show results, and it has failed abysmally. A new approach must be tried, instead of sticking to the current one just because it's ideologically appealing.
That conclusion is completely unfounded. How many black students do you think have benefitted from AA? Compared to the total population? You have to look at the benefits that black students who have attended colelge since AA to determine whether or not it works. If anything, this shows that the US gov't is so busy patting itself on the back due to AA that it isn't addressed the needs of the majority of African-Americans--those who never make it to college in the first place. But it doesn't show that blacks who attend and graduate from college are not succeeding. AA doesn't cost anything, so I don't see why some black people should benefit at the expense of the rest of the community.
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mobb_theprequel
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#204
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#204
(Original post by Bismarck)
Every statistics you look at shows a clear failure of AA. Blacks are half as likely to graduate from high school or college, their income is only 2/3 that of whites, their divorce rate is significantly higher than the national average, and the amount of positions of power that blacks hold is minimal given the fact that they make up 12% of the population. The present approach had 40 years to show results, and it has failed abysmally. A new approach must be tried, instead of sticking to the current one just because it's ideologically appealing.
"Every statistic"? The two which you have just produced, to me, show that America has comparatively better levels of employment amongst blacks than is the case in Britain. America has affirmative action; Britain doesn't.

You quote all these statistics, but may I ask - what were you hoping that AA would achieve? Entrenched dynasties such as the Kennedies and Rockefellers to lay down and die, and the floodgates to open for black professionals to wrest control of Citigroup, General Motors and Oracle from the hands of white CEOs and shareholders, blacks to take over Greenwich Village and East Hampton? A significant proportion of blacks in America still live in a state of poverty, and within a cycle which seems to be - under present conditions - irreversible. The statistics you've alluded to are indicative of this; and the ills of American society.

It will take more than AA to see an improvement in the fortunes of those who currently reside in the "refugee camps" on the Gulf Coast.
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Bismarck
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#205
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#205
(Original post by shady lane)
That conclusion is completely unfounded. How many black students do you think have benefitted from AA? Compared to the total population? You have to look at the benefits that black students who have attended colelge since AA to determine whether or not it works. If anything, this shows that the US gov't is so busy patting itself on the back due to AA that it isn't addressed the needs of the majority of African-Americans--those who never make it to college in the first place. But it doesn't show that blacks who attend and graduate from college are not succeeding. AA doesn't cost anything, so I don't see why some black people should benefit at the expense of the rest of the community.
How many blacks do you think decided not to put in their best effort knowing that they could get in college doing less work than others? What do you think happens to the competitive drive of blacks when they are repeatedly told that they are successful even if they do worse than the students around them?

As for AA not having a cost, that's ridiculous, every policy has a cost.

In the unemployment arena the position of American blacks has actually got worse: in 1964 the ratio of black to white unemployment was 2:1, in 1990 it stood at 2.76:1...

...In America this machinery com-prises the Equal Employment Oppor-tunity Commission, the Office of Federal Contract Compliance, the Department of Education, and several other federal, state, and local agencies. Brimelow and Spencer found that the cost of regulation by these agencies amounted to approximately $545 million. When the costs of complying with affirmative-action regulations (including private-sector costs) are added, they estimate that direct costs rise to $17billion-$20 billion...

...Brimelow and Spencer believe that in America the highest costs of affirmative action are the oppor-tunity costs — the opportunity cost of a particular choice is the value of the best alternative foregone — and estimate these at $236 billion for 1991. The opportunity costs of affirmative action arise from bad hiring decisions under government coercion, negative effects on morale, and the misallocation of financial resources...

...[Race-based affirmative-action policies encourage a culture of entitlement that undermines initiative, self-confidence and self-reliance. The beneficiaries of racial preferences may always have to do more to prove their worth than others because of lingering suspicions of undue advantage. Even the beneficiaries themselves often wonder whether they are in demand because of their abilities or because they happen to be the “right” colour.
Source
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Bismarck
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#206
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#206
(Original post by mobb_theprequel)
"Every statistic"? The two which you have just produced, to me, show that America has comparatively better levels of employment amongst blacks than is the case in Britain. America has affirmative action; Britain doesn't.

You quote all these statistics, but may I ask - what were you hoping that AA would achieve? Entrenched dynasties such as the Kennedies and Rockefellers to lay down and die, and the floodgates to open for black professionals to wrest control of Citigroup, General Motors and Oracle from the hands of white CEOs and shareholders, blacks to take over Greenwich Village and East Hampton? A significant proportion of blacks in America still live in a state of poverty, and within a cycle which seems to be - under present conditions - irreversible. The statistics you've alluded to are indicative of this; and the ills of American society.

It will take more than AA to see an improvement in the fortunes of those who currently reside in the "refugee camps" on the Gulf Coast.
So why do blacks in the US have a lower salary than Asians? Or Hispanics? Or immigrants? There is no AA for Asians and immigrants, and yet they are economically successful anyway. Why is that? Why do immigrants from Africa do better than African-Americans in college? The only thing AA achieved is to give the black man the impression that he's inferior to whites. That is a racist and an unwarranted proposition, but what should black people think when they are repeatedly told that it's ok for them to fail? That it's not their fault that they can't get a job? The government has forced a policy of dependency on blacks and wishing to perpetuate that policy is to perpetuate the socioeconomic differences between whites and blacks.
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mobb_theprequel
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#207
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#207
(Original post by Bismarck)
How many blacks do you think decided not to put in their best effort knowing that they could get in college doing less work than others? What do you think happens to the competitive drive of blacks when they are repeatedly told that they are successful even if they do worse than the students around them?

As for AA not having a cost, that's ridiculous, every policy has a cost.



Source
This view of AA isn't shared by all though - and Brimelow is an Old Right thinker who obviously wouldn't be singing the merits of the scheme, in any case!
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Bismarck
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#208
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#208
(Original post by mobb_theprequel)
This view of AA isn't shared by all though - and Brimelow is an Old Right thinker who obviously wouldn't be singing the merits of the scheme, in any case!
Are you saying that stastics are false? Any academic who uses deceitful tactics would get kicked out of academia pretty quickly. Please tell me how AA has helped the average black person.
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mobb_theprequel
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#209
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#209
Bismarck, I will post reponses to your latest posts in the morning - or should I say later on in the morning! I've enjoyed the debate.

Although I might add that some of the material you've flagged up in consolidating your argument looks to be quite interesting. I've written down a few of the publications, cited on the hyperlinked webpages, as I'm sure that a lot of it will be accessible to us within the coming weeks.

See ya.
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Bismarck
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#210
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#210
(Original post by mobb_theprequel)
Bismarck, I will post reponses to your latest posts in the morning - or should I say later on in the morning! I've enjoyed the debate.

Although I might add that some of the material you've flagged up in consolidating your argument looks to be quite interesting. I've written down a few of the publications, cited on the hyperlinked webpages, as I'm sure that a lot of it will be accessible to us within the coming weeks.

See ya.
Cheers. Nighty night.
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Jamie
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#211
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#211
(Original post by mobb_theprequel)
Access - and the need for greater diversity - isn't peculiar to the black condition. White people from working class backgrounds, Bangladeshis, some might even reasonably argue LGBT people etc, are all worthy of greater consideration than they are afforded under the present system.

Research has shown that Britain has one of the poorest social mobility profiles in Europe - and education is the foundation for the 99.9999pc of the population who don't have the requisite 'abilities' to knock a piece of leather about for Chelsea. Universities need to change.
hang on. you are saying that we need an access scheme....for gay students now?
:confused:
Jamie
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#212
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#212
(Original post by mobb_theprequel)
So it's okay to take in blacks from Hackney and overseas public schools - but screw the rest? I don't see it that way, personally.
No. what he said is exactly what i said.
A great deal of the black population is socially deprived.
Hence by setting access schemes to help those of lower socio-economic groups, you will be helping those deprived black communities, without becoming racist about it.

You are actually arguing about taking a white lads place and giving it to a black lad just so as to get more numbers in the uni. you are saying this irrespective of their own circumstances.

Itspatronising and degrading to the black community, and will only deepen divides.
after all, what come back would a rich black kid at cambridge have when someone simply said - the only reason you're here is because of the colour of your skin.
Cos it would be true.

Conversely if its about socio-economic status rather than skin colour, then that would go more towards aiding social mobility and levelling the playing field.


And thats the important thing tome - giving all as equal a chance as possible rather than giving an advantage to the ethnic group of your chosing.
Lord Waddell
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#213
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#213
(Original post by Bismarck)
Does that mean as many Londoners go to private school?
Probably, but there are a lot of private schools in Edinburgh, and since they are generally the better schools and the parents can afford the fees then you get a lot of pupils going to private/public schools. Not so mention assisted places for those that are intelligent but can't afford the fees.
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mobb_theprequel
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#214
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#214
(Original post by Jamie)
hang on. you are saying that we need an access scheme....for gay students now?
:confused:
Such schemes already exist in investment banking, in this country, so why not in universities? Whether they should receive preferential treatment in the admissions process is a seperate issue.

But people need to realise that an integral part of overcoming diversity issues, is to actually have a large following of disaffected and underrepresented groups attending a university - otherwise the rhetoric about "access" is *******s. Bringing about a change in the ethos of an institution is just as significant as the numerical change.
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mobb_theprequel
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#215
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#215
(Original post by Bismarck)
So why do blacks in the US have a lower salary than Asians? Or Hispanics? Or immigrants? There is no AA for Asians and immigrants, and yet they are economically successful anyway. Why is that? Why do immigrants from Africa do better than African-Americans in college? The only thing AA achieved is to give the black man the impression that he's inferior to whites. That is a racist and an unwarranted proposition, but what should black people think when they are repeatedly told that it's ok for them to fail? That it's not their fault that they can't get a job? The government has forced a policy of dependency on blacks and wishing to perpetuate that policy is to perpetuate the socioeconomic differences between whites and blacks.
I don't think you can debase the AA scheme to the point where you effectively make it out to be a continuation of handout culture. A great many people have benefitted from the scheme, and indeed strived to gain a place at university, a good degree classification, and a role in the workplace. Nobody is being told that "it's okay for them to fail", not least because the concept of failure and graduation from one of the top universities in the world are not synonymous. 40 years is no length of time in which to assess the effects of AA; my belief is that lasting socio-economic enhancement is brought about by entrenched, dynastic movements. AA has facilitated black, middle class pockets in the USA and a platform to social mobility which simply didn't exist pre-1960s. Despite this progress, sending the odd one or two generations of the black community to a top school and expecting the GDP/capita of black citizens to rise phenomenally within a generation is overoptimistic. Especially when you take into account the following:

The black middle class, unfortunately, is based more on income than on assets. Black married couples have about 80 percent of the income of white married couples but only one-quarter the net worth.
The net worth of college-educated whites is about $58,000 more than the net worth of college-educated African Americans. Given its net financial assets, a typical middle-class white family can sustain itself at its present standard of living for about four and one-third months if it loses its income stream, while the typical middle-class black family could not sustain itself for a month.
Among some African Americans, there is the sad but true expression that the difference between being middle class and poor is one paycheck. Although recent economic prosperity has been good for African Americans, they face instability as the "last hired" and "first fired" in an economic downturn.
Most African Americans' assets are in their homes and vehicles. Whites have more diversified investments in income-producing and financial assets such as stocks, bonds, mutual funds, and individual retirement accounts.


http://www.worldandi.com/public/1999...ary/middle.cfm


Perhaps the foremost commonality between ruling classes across continents is their level of education - and the fact that the means of production and the stock of wealth are, in the main, in the hands of those who have sent generations upon generations of their families to the top universities. AA is at least a foot on the ladder in the hope of creating more diverse middle class, educated communities.
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President_Ben
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#216
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#216
(Original post by Snake)
why is it better for those with money?
the grants and bursaries available to students make other unis look like cheap skates by comparison.
In every college i think anyone who gets the full student loan has access to a yearly grant of £1000 (with minimal filling out of forms unlike other palces - its one pieceof paper) plus a £150 book grant. it s asliding scale so anyone who gets above the minimum loan can apply and get an amount.

other unis like Imperial give token amounts of a few hundred quid. nothing really.
The cost of being at a London uni or Oxbridge is MASSIVELY higher than being at others.
President_Ben
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#217
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#217
(Original post by Snake)
why are people going on about this?
IS it that hard to accept that masters in america means something different to the UK?
You know 'fanny' means something completely different across the pond too...

Fact is the oxbridge MA is a tradition going back hundreds of years. the old idea was - (note it probably arose before the NEw world had even been explored) that the MA was conferred some 3/4 years after graduation as a sign that the person had gained life experience in the vocation.

Since then it has altered to mean something else in other institutes in the UK and something different again in the US. I think the equiv to a UK masters in oxbridge is something like an Mphil. the equiv of a US masters is a PhD i believe.

I would warrant that the differences arose because of an american change - not a uk one.
Pfftttt, shows up how much you know about history in this area...

The concept of an awarded Masters on academic merit came from Germany and has been around in various universities all over the place for quite a while since then.

The Masters Oxon and Cantab were for a voting right in a certain election. That is all. They have had Masters for actual academic reasons going back for many decades too.


edit to add: Hmm, can't be bothered with this thread anymore. Got very circular, very dull, poorly researched and I have better things to do. Sorry!
Jamie
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#218
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#218
(Original post by President_Ben)
The cost of being at a London uni or Oxbridge is MASSIVELY higher than being at others.
I managed ok, and i never had any help from my parents or aught.
shady lane
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#219
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#219
(Original post by Bismarck)
So why do blacks in the US have a lower salary than Asians? Or Hispanics? Or immigrants? There is no AA for Asians and immigrants, and yet they are economically successful anyway.
There is AA for all underrepresented minorities in college, including
blacks
Latinos
certain Asian groups (Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Vietnamese)

At Stanford there is a lot of discussion about these Asian groups--they are very underrepresnted and the university is trying now to attract more Filipinos in particular, they tend to be very poor and poorly educated.
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yawn
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#220
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#220
(Original post by Jamie)
I managed ok, and i never had any help from my parents or aught.
Presumably you did/are doing a five year course (are you still in the middle of it or are you a qualified doctor?)

How much will your eventual debt be? Is there any means at your disposal of reducing this debt, other than moon-lighting ?(which the media will say is impossible, due to the workload)
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