Omnipotence & Omniscience - Contradictions? Watch

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zizero
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According to most theists, God is both omnipotent (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing).

I see a contradiction there:

Suppose there is a being that knows everything.
If that being knows everything, it knows all that is going to happen: It can see into the future. If it knows what is going to happen, it knows it itself is going to do.
Therefore, it's own actions are predetermined. If it's actions are predetermined, the said being has no freedom in its actions. It cannot do everything and hence is not all-powerful.

Therefore, omniscience and omnipotence are not compatible.

What do you think?

I am especially interested in theists' solution to this (apparent) contradiction.

And please don't say, 'God is beyond logic', because God IS logic. If he is 'beyond logic', he is illogical and hence not perfect. If he's not perfect, he's not God...
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Ralfskini
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(Original post by zizero)
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According to most theists, God is both omnipotent (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing).

I see a contradiction there:

Suppose there is a being that knows everything.
If that being knows everything, it knows all that is going to happen: It can see into the future. If it knows what is going to happen, it knows it itself is going to do.
Therefore, it's own actions are predetermined. If it's actions are predetermined, the said being has no freedom in its actions. It cannot do everything and hence is not all-powerful.

Therefore, omniscience and omnipotence are not compatible.

What do you think?

I am especially interested in theists' solution to this (apparent) contradiction.

And please don't say, 'God is beyond logic', because God IS logic. If he is 'beyond logic', he is illogical and hence not perfect. If he's not perfect, he's not God...


Good point. Dont expect for theists to come up with a solution to that one because they won't.
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Bigcnee
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The argument is made irrelevant if there is no such thing as Determinsim.

Nonetheless, your point is interesting.
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curryADD
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(Original post by zizero)
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According to most theists, God is both omnipotent (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing).

I see a contradiction there:

Suppose there is a being that knows everything.
If that being knows everything, it knows all that is going to happen: It can see into the future. If it knows what is going to happen, it knows it itself is going to do.
Therefore, it's own actions are predetermined. If it's actions are predetermined, the said being has no freedom in its actions. It cannot do everything and hence is not all-powerful.

Therefore, omniscience and omnipotence are not compatible.

What do you think?

I am especially interested in theists' solution to this (apparent) contradiction.

And please don't say, 'God is beyond logic', because God IS logic. If he is 'beyond logic', he is illogical and hence not perfect. If he's not perfect, he's not God...
i really dont think one cuts out the other....however, i dont believe in god so....im the wrong person to be posting here!
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zizero
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
The argument is made irrelevant if there is no such thing as Determinsim.

Nonetheless, your point is interesting.
If there is no such thing as determinism, how can God know everything? He would not know what is going to happen in the future as that would not be decided yet.

If he does not know everything, God is not omniscient.
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Bigcnee
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(Original post by zizero)
If there is no such thing as determinism, how can God know everything? He would not know what is going to happen in the future as that would not be decided yet.

If he does not know everything, God is not omniscient.
If Determinism doesn't exist, then knowledge of it doesn't exist.
Hence, God could still 'know' everything.
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curryADD
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(Original post by zizero)
If there is no such thing as determinism, how can God know everything? He would not know what is going to happen in the future as that would not be decided yet.

If he does not know everything, God is not omniscient.
maybe its because he decides the future.....he knows because what he wants to happen happens.....

i dunno.
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Linda
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does omnipotence neccesarlily include knowledge of the future?

regarding omniscience...
Can God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?

Could it be that these objections have something of a word game nature to them which do not generate paradox when looked at correctly...? In the stone case for example, to say that "God cannot create a stone which is too heavy to move" is just a direct and harmless consequence of "God can create and move stones of any weight at all".
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Kirki
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Don't most theists also believe that God is outside of time, though? If there is no time as we know it, then how can there be a "future" as we know it for God to see? We cannot possibly concieve of the "world" God lives in, and your argument rests on the claim that the conditions he lives in are the same as we do. I would say that that would be the hole theists would find in your argument
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PQ
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(Original post by zizero)
If he is 'beyond logic', he is illogical and hence not perfect. If he's not perfect, he's not God...
At the risk of appearing flippant...

He?

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curryADD
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(Original post by Kirki)
Don't most theists also believe that God is outside of time, though? If there is no time as we know it, then how can there be a "future" as we know it for God to see? We cannot possibly concieve of the "world" God lives in, and your argument rests on the claim that the conditions he lives in are the same as we do. I would say that that would be the hole theists would find in your argument
yes, my parents drag me to church every sunday. he is also known as I AM, meaning i was, i am, and i always will be.
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thefish_uk
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(Original post by Kirki)
Don't most theists also believe that God is outside of time, though? If there is no time as we know it, then how can there be a "future" as we know it for God to see? We cannot possibly concieve of the "world" God lives in, and your argument rests on the claim that the conditions he lives in are the same as we do. I would say that that would be the hole theists would find in your argument
But that'd mean that God is everything, the force that drives all life. Or something.

Rather than God being like a person with thought and emotion who we can talk to.
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pedy1986
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I don't believe God is omnipotent, hence this contridiction for me is solved.
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kildare
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(Original post by Linda)
does omnipotence neccesarlily include knowledge of the future?

regarding omniscience...
Can God create a stone so heavy he cannot lift it?

Could it be that these objections have something of a word game nature to them which do not generate paradox when looked at correctly...? In the stone case for example, to say that "God cannot create a stone which is too heavy to move" is just a direct and harmless consequence of "God can create and move stones of any weight at all".
I still maintain that the stone analogy is a fault of language.
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Linda
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(Original post by kildare)
I still maintain that the stone analogy is a fault of language.
then we agree, don't we? btw I notice I mixed up omniscience and omnipotence...
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kildare
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(Original post by Linda)
then we agree, don't we? btw I notice I mixed up omniscience and omnipotence...
If you believe that it's a fault of language, then we do indeed agree .
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Bigcnee
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(Original post by kildare)
I still maintain that the stone analogy is a fault of language.
True.

All written logic is subject to the fallibility of human perception.
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SasunD
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the thing is, we can only imagine and think about stuff that makes sense to us in this physical world. You know when you have a starnge dream and then you wake up and realise that what the hell you were dreaming about was so abstract it couldn't happen.

Well that is the kind of logic here. Most people cannot think of the Universe being infinitely large, because you see things on earth which can never be infinite. We cannot imagine infinity as it doesn't make sense, and yet there is o possibility of it existing.

The thing with God is that he is supposed to be out of this realm, and therefore no physical laws govern his wolrd, so you cannot imagine what i could be like there, if such a place existed.

For example, you cannot imagine a real person flying through the air like superman, because we know you cannot act against graviy to lift yourslef off the ground and stay there, unless you had a harness or something.....


anyways, i think what i am saying is beginning not to make sense....
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Jamie
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(Original post by Bigcnee)
The argument is made irrelevant if there is no such thing as Determinsim.

Nonetheless, your point is interesting.
Of course you could go the other way and say that god doesn't need to be all-powerful and all-knowing. The all-powerful part relates to his ability to do anything, one power of course would be to know everything. So all knowing is simply another power that falls under the all-powerful label
J
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hildabeast
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(Original post by zizero)
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According to most theists, God is both omnipotent (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing).

I see a contradiction there:

Suppose there is a being that knows everything.
If that being knows everything, it knows all that is going to happen: It can see into the future. If it knows what is going to happen, it knows it itself is going to do.
Therefore, it's own actions are predetermined. If it's actions are predetermined, the said being has no freedom in its actions. It cannot do everything and hence is not all-powerful.

Therefore, omniscience and omnipotence are not compatible.

What do you think?

I am especially interested in theists' solution to this (apparent) contradiction.

And please don't say, 'God is beyond logic', because God IS logic. If he is 'beyond logic', he is illogical and hence not perfect. If he's not perfect, he's not God...
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