Omnipotence & Omniscience - Contradictions? Watch

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Jamie
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#21
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#21
(Original post by hildabeast)
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zizero
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Kirki)
Don't most theists also believe that God is outside of time, though? If there is no time as we know it, then how can there be a "future" as we know it for God to see? We cannot possibly concieve of the "world" God lives in, and your argument rests on the claim that the conditions he lives in are the same as we do. I would say that that would be the hole theists would find in your argument
Fair point.
But if God is outside of time, in order to be omniscient he must have time in front of him.
You could compare it to a filmroll. God is not in the movie, but he is outside of it, looking at the filmroll. He can see everything at once as he can se every single frame. So he is omniscient.
The problem is, what is printed on the filmroll is fixed, it cannot be changed. And as he can't actually change the movie, God is not omnipotent.
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Linda
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#23
(Original post by foolfarian)
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starry
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(Original post by Linda)
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101mphfastball
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#25
Why do people always think they can stuff God into a Box and explian Him. If he is truly God he is unexplainable and although certian terms may seem to cause confusion, why should we understand everything, wouldnt that make man God like. I cannot show anyone God, but does that make God wrong or not exist.

Some things have to be excepted not cause they are unplausable but because God is greater than anything imaginable. Afterall how many people were dead for 3 days and came to life and a cruel punishing death, although some will say it never happened. Prove it didn't, I can't prove it did tangably anymore than it can be proved false. How can one man even if perfect can pay for the wrong of milions maybe billions of people. Go figure........I looked for a longtime for errors in the Bible cause thats the foundation of Christianity not anyone impercfect person, I wanted to find errors, me and many other have never found any..........

I digress........what was the question.........
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zizero
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#26
(Original post by 101mphfastball)
Why do people always think they can stuff God into a Box and explian Him. If he is truly God he is unexplainable and although certian terms may seem to cause confusion, why should we understand everything, wouldnt that make man God like. I cannot show anyone God, but does that make God wrong or not exist.

Some things have to be excepted not cause they are unplausable but because God is greater than anything imaginable. Afterall how many people were dead for 3 days and came to life and a cruel punishing death, although some will say it never happened. Prove it didn't, I can't prove it did tangably anymore than it can be proved false. How can one man even if perfect can pay for the wrong of milions maybe billions of people. Go figure........I looked for a longtime for errors in the Bible cause thats the foundation of Christianity not anyone impercfect person, I wanted to find errors, me and many other have never found any..........

I digress........what was the question.........
You can't reject any reflexion on the nature of God, just because he is beyond our understanding.

According to most theists, God is not beyond logic. If that's the case, we can make certain statements about Him, as logic is an instrument we master.

So, if I find a contradiction about the nature of God as described by most theists, you can't just reject it arguing that God is unexplainable.
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101mphfastball
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#27
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#27
(Original post by zizero)
You can't reject any reflexion on the nature of God, just because he is beyond our understanding.

According to most theists, God is not beyond logic. If that's the case, we can make certain statements about Him, as logic is an instrument we master.

So, if I find a contradiction about the nature of God as described by most theists, you can't just reject it arguing that God is unexplainable.

The BIble is the foundation for all we know about God, and there are no contradictions there is nothing illogical. Anyway who defines logic. Afterall the Bible states God always was he has no beginning or end, whether that defies logic or not I don't know, but can you explian that, can logic explian that. Why do you insist that mortal man can define and undstand an almighty God who we can not see.
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zizero
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#28
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#28
(Original post by 101mphfastball)
The BIble is the foundation for all we know about God, and there are no contradictions there is nothing illogical.
If that's your opinion, surely you have a logical solution to the paradox I presented in this thread...
Anyway who defines logic. Afterall the Bible states God always was he has no beginning or end, whether that defies logic or not I don't know, but can you explian that, can logic explian that. Why do you insist that mortal man can define and undstand an almighty God who we can not see.
I am not saying that,'that mortal man can define and undstand an almighty God who we can not see'. I am not claiming we can understand God. I am just saying that since God IS logic, there can be no contradictions about Him. If there is one, he does not exist. Simple as that.

Instead of arguing about how God defies all logic and man is ignorant etc. etc. etc., I would be grateful if you could now move on to address the proper question.
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101mphfastball
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#29
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#29
If your life is dependent on what is defined logic........by theologians who may or may not believe in God or his Bible....then forget about your question your never have an answer, wait until you die.......maybe your get one then.
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zizero
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#30
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#30
(Original post by 101mphfastball)
If your life is dependent on what is defined logic........by theologians who may or may not believe in God or his Bible....then forget about your question your never have an answer, wait until you die.......maybe your get one then.
I'm sorry, but I don't see any problem or confusion with the concept of logic. It is not ambiguous at all. So, what do you mean by 'defined logic'.

PS You're still refusing to answer the initial question...
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Bigcnee
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#31
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#31
(Original post by zizero)
blah...blah...blah..
You still haven't answered my point.
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101mphfastball
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#32
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#32
(Original post by zizero)
I'm sorry, but I don't see any problem or confusion with the concept of logic. It is not ambiguous at all. So, what do you mean by 'defined logic'.

PS You're still refusing to answer the initial question...
God created the whole world and mankind for his own pleasure and to have a relationship with people (Why, cant answer that). Why did he allow it to screw up......he gave us free choice we made the wrong choice (we as in Adam and EVe)......why he allowed that to happen being he is all knowing and all powerful, is a disscussion for eternty until maybe you get the chance to ask Him. He also made a way out for mankind Jesus Christ, Christ has defeated Satan in that people can be made right with God cause of Jesus, although if you aint for God you are Satans. Why do things this way, does this make God all powerful, and being he knew why do it. You can discuss and argue and go on about logic all you want but no one to this day has ever explianed to me a 100% fullproof answer regarding free choice and why God Knowing all lets certian things to happen, and why knowing what he will do maybe is limmiting in the sense of being allpowerful. I understand your point, and I cannot explain it. But you either except God for who he is or your don't, if you don't oneday maybe your find out that you made a big mistake and that is the bottomline. Nothing else matters. We can argue or discuss forever........your get your answer when you die about how all knowing and all powerful God is, if he is who he says he is. If not maybe its all nothing, if you don't believe the Bible....by what else do you go by what authority. If God is allpowerful you can't explian him away, maybe be its is logical, maybe God doesnt have to be. You want an explanation......just maybe there isnt one. or one you won't get on this earth.
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101mphfastball
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#33
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#33
Like I said you can discuss this forever, and not find an answer or an answer you like.

I have baseball practice to prepare. And of course baseball is the meaning and essence of all life as we know it........so I won't be around no longer (today that is) to discuss this.
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curryADD
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#34
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#34
(Original post by 101mphfastball)
Like I said you can discuss this forever, and not find an answer or an answer you like.

I have baseball practice to prepare. And of course baseball is the meaning and essence of all life as we know it........so I won't be around no longer (today that is) to discuss this.
of course not......my next swim practice is in about 9 hours, 5 30 in the morning, theres nothing like it!

swimming is the essence of all life, your high
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Linda
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#35
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#35
(Original post by starry)
eh?
She studies /both/ theology and philosophy...
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Eru Iluvatar
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#36
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#36
(Original post by zizero)
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According to most theists, God is both omnipotent (all-powerful) and omniscient (all-knowing).

I see a contradiction there:

Suppose there is a being that knows everything.
If that being knows everything, it knows all that is going to happen: It can see into the future. If it knows what is going to happen, it knows it itself is going to do.
Therefore, it's own actions are predetermined. If it's actions are predetermined, the said being has no freedom in its actions. It cannot do everything and hence is not all-powerful.

Therefore, omniscience and omnipotence are not compatible.

What do you think?

I am especially interested in theists' solution to this (apparent) contradiction.

And please don't say, 'God is beyond logic', because God IS logic. If he is 'beyond logic', he is illogical and hence not perfect. If he's not perfect, he's not God...
Well, disregarding my disbelief in god as a physical entity for a moment, god never claimed to be perfect.
He (She, it, whatever), admits to being jealous for a start. And as god does not claim to be perfect, the argument that god is beyond logic could be used, if i was so enclined to do so.
But i am not.

Being all powerful means that you can do anything, not that you actually do every single thing that is possible.
I can do lots of things, but i don't go around doing all of them all the time.
Just because his actions are predetermined, as this isn't about what he can do, only what he does do, saying that he can't do everything is simply not true.

But now to the important part. I don't believe in god as a physical entity.
Meaning, i don't think a god exists.
But i do believe in god as a moral philosophy.
So therefore this discussion is really pointless to be totally honest.
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Kirki
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#37
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in order to be omniscient he must have time in front of him.
Why must he? I see no reason for this. Why does the lack of time take anything away from the perfection of God?

The problem is, what is printed on the filmroll is fixed, it cannot be changed. And as he can't actually change the movie, God is not omnipotent.
Why can't he change the movie? You've provided no clear reason as to why this would be impossible.
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nikk
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#38
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If he knew the future, he would simply know the choices that he would make. He is not restricted, the choice is still his - he would just know what he would have choosen.
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