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llama boy
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#61
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#61
(Original post by JSM)
it is beneficial to have money circulating unless you have too much circulation. But they would spend it, the investment bankers i know spend huge amounts on champagne, employing servants, betting, they spend it because they are in genreal young. Why should their money be GIVEN away, otehr people dont have to put one ounce of extra effort in to get it.
ah, effort.

because someone who earns the minimum wage all their life in a factory puts in much less effort than investment bankers who drink champagne, employ servants etc.

the system doesn't work on effort. it works on your utility to the system, which is utterly unjust.
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kildare
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#62
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(Original post by llama boy)
When I say "The WTO et al" I guess I'm referring to the power behind the organisations, very largely a juggernaut of big business and the US govt.

Any illusion of consensus decision making etc is just that.
Hmmm, well the WTO is not a juggernaut of big business and the US government, would you care to point out some specific examples? Usually when the U.S acts in a contentious manner they do it in direct contravention of WTO rules and do not get the WTO's support (the steel tariffs are a case in point).
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aliel
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#63
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(Original post by JSM)
maybe, maybe not, family ties, if i die, i die, if someone else dies, they die. Everyone will sooner or later die, so it is irrelavent.

Funnily enough JSM, forward-looking and developing societies are seen to possess a "social conscience" Have you heard of one of those? Similar policies to that of what you would support, but perhaps more coherent, were carried out in three successive terms by the Thatcher government..and look at the what happened to our economy and our society.
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kildare
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#64
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(Original post by JSM)
Everyone will sooner or later die, so it is irrelavent.
Can you please answer my question a bit more seriously. Try and deal with the short to medium term.
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aliel
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#65
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(Original post by JSM)
so how old are you and i think i have been faced with the real world, i wlaked through tower hamlets on christmas day at one in the morning. I think i have seen the real world. I have friends in mallorca who basically substinence farm because they are asset rich, cash poor

depends what you mean by equal opportunities, equally under law the same legal opportunities, but there are also social constraints, im not saying force them to have equakl responsibilite ie vote and dont complain about parites if you didnt vote
I am sorry but i do not consider walking through Tower Hamlets at 1am to constitute "facing the real world". Neither having "friends" that may or may not have more of an understanding of the reality of poverty.
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kildare
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#66
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#66
(Original post by JSM)
it is beneficial to have money circulating unless you have too much circulation. But they would spend it, the investment bankers i know spend huge amounts on champagne, employing servants, betting, they spend it because they are in genreal young. Why should their money be GIVEN away, otehr people dont have to put one ounce of extra effort in to get it.
Britain's rich is not made up solely of investment bankers who you happen to know, the point remains. Do you accept that for some people (because of their background) it is easier to earn large sums of money than it is for others.
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kildare
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#67
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#67
Regardless of income redistribution, what about public services, do you not think the state has a duty to provide adequate education and health care?
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llama boy
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#68
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(Original post by kildare)
Hmmm, well the WTO is not a juggernaut of big business and the US government, would you care to point out some specific examples? Usually when the U.S acts in a contentious manner they do it in direct contravention of WTO rules and do not get the WTO's support (the steel tariffs are a case in point).
the EU are big enough to face off the US. The rest of the world, when threatened by both the EU and US, aren't. The steel tariffs were a classic example of that.

The wider point is that the WTO rules are made to be in the interests of the developed world and its businesses, hence why they made them and support them.

The US isn't silly enough to throw away the huge benefits it is gaining through the WTO rules for a relatively isolated incident over steel tariffs. Especially when the EU is the only real power block with the clout to respond.
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llama boy
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#69
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(Original post by JSM)
so how old are you and i think i have been faced with the real world, i wlaked through tower hamlets on christmas day at one in the morning.
that is so damn patronising.

you have NO idea of the real world.

what it is like to have the pressure of poverty, to live everyday hand-to-mouth, not knowing if you have even enough money to afford the basics for you and your children.

and yet you cheerfully suggest policies that will greatly exacerbate those everyday struggles.
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kildare
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#70
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(Original post by llama boy)
the EU are big enough to face off the US. The rest of the world combined, when threatened by both the EU and US, aren't. The steel tariffs were a classic example of that.

The wider point is that the WTO rules are made to be in the interests of the developed world and its businesses, hence why they made them and support them.

The US isn't silly enough to throw away the huge benefits it is gaining through the WTO rules for a relatively isolated incident over steel tariffs. Especially when the EU is the only real power block with the clout to respond.
What WTO rules are you referring to? Most of them are actually favour devolping countries if anything (I should know, I know most of the people who write and debate them). The problem however is that the devolped world frequently flout them (The CAP, US and Japanese farm subsides, US steel tariffs being the obvious examples).
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JSM
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#71
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#71
(Original post by kildare)
They are still rewarded for this, there net pay is much higher than most.
and?
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JSM
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#72
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(Original post by llama boy)
ah, effort.

because someone who earns the minimum wage all their life in a factory puts in much less effort than investment bankers who drink champagne, employ servants etc.

the system doesn't work on effort. it works on your utility to the system, which is utterly unjust.
what else should it work on

and, btw there is an easy around min. wage go and become a bus driver and get paid £10 an hour, all training on the job
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kildare
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#73
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(Original post by JSM)
and?
There is no reason why they shouldn't be expected to pay a higher rate of tax over a certain threshold.
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llama boy
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#74
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(Original post by kildare)
What WTO rules are you referring to? Most of them are actually favour devolping countries if anything (I should know, I know most of the people who write and debate them). The problem however is that the devolped world frequently flout them (The CAP, US and Japanese farm subsides, US steel tariffs being the obvious examples).
i'm not an expert on WTO rules, but for example, the product/process rule is utterly jarred against labour law etc, which is of interest to western big business.
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JSM
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#75
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#75
(Original post by kildare)
What WTO rules are you referring to? Most of them are actually favour devolping countries if anything (I should know, I know most of the people who write and debate them). The problem however is that the devolped world frequently flout them (The CAP, US and Japanese farm subsides, US steel tariffs being the obvious examples).
US import bans on mad cow beef and then ferocious lobbying to prevent other countires puttign them on.
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JSM
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#76
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(Original post by aliel)
Funnily enough JSM, forward-looking and developing societies are seen to possess a "social conscience" Have you heard of one of those? Similar policies to that of what you would support, but perhaps more coherent, were carried out in three successive terms by the Thatcher government..and look at the what happened to our economy and our society.
hey i am not coherant because i am having to defend and justify myself against people's whose ideas wouldn't stand any justification. Thatcher was one of the best things that ever happened to our country and she was voted in three times in row therefore had public legitimacy.

TO ALL OF YOU

would you fundamentally agree that "from each according to his means, to each according to his needs" is a good idea
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kildare
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#77
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(Original post by JSM)
US import bans on mad cow beef and then ferocious lobbying to prevent other countires puttign them on.
That has nothing to do with the WTO.
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JSM
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#78
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#78
(Original post by kildare)
Can you please answer my question a bit more seriously. Try and deal with the short to medium term.
why short to medium temr why not long term, short term it makes sense for badly run PFIs long term it doesnt becasue it will straddle future governments with a huge debt to make you look good today.
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kildare
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#79
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(Original post by llama boy)
i'm not an expert on WTO rules, but for example, the product/process rule is utterly jarred against labour law etc, which is of interest to western big business.
Any idea what the name of the specific rule you're referring to is called.
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llama boy
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#80
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and, btw there is an easy around min. wage go and become a bus driver and get paid £10 an hour, all training on the job
yeah, great, that'll solve the problems of the working class.
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