Equality of opportunity – unless you're one of the middle classes

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aliel
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#21
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#21
(Original post by vienna95)
not a fan of history then?
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Vienna
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Bigcnee)
The Fiscal Institute published (from a Conservative perspective, a rather
embarrassing) report detailing the research.

A capitalist society means that some will be richer than others.
Well all have the right to an education.
research saying what?
i agree with both your latter statements.
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llama boy
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#23
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#23
(Original post by vienna95)
not a fan of history then?
nope. love history.
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Bigcnee
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#24
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#24
(Original post by vienna95)
im sorry?
Forgiven.

(Original post by vienna95)
no tuition fees means you and I would have no cost burden..
Wrong. The overall cost to the taxpayer would be about £1.7bn under the Conservatives.


(Original post by vienna95)
how do lower income tax payers on low tax bands pay more?
Proportional to earning, of course. :rolleyes:
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llama boy
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#25
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#25
(Original post by vienna95)
no ****, capitalist society means some are better off than others?
then perhaps you can answer your own poser in the thread title about equality of opportunity.
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Vienna
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#26
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#26
(Original post by Bigcnee)
Forgiven.



Wrong. The overall cost to the taxpayer would be about £1.7bn under the Conservatives.


Proportional to earning, of course. :rolleyes:

to the taxpayer yes, who is taxed based on income. proportional cost, how socialist are you?
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Vienna
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#27
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#27
(Original post by llama boy)
then perhaps you can answer your own poser in the thread title about equality of opportunity.
no. i dont understand why that difference should mean a disadvantage.
bigcnee made the same point 2-3 posts above.
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kildare
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#28
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#28
It's not all relevant but here is "what I wrote, a couple of hours earlier"

This article deals with a merit good (university education). Germany considers the positive externalities that come from attending university (an educated population and workforce) so great that the government subsidies university education to the point that it is free for every student.

The Economist however, feels this is an inefficient waste of government resources, which stifles competition and academic excellence. In many respects this argument has some value: students would expect to reap a private benefit from their education and as such could be expected to make a contribution towards it. Tuition fees may help to filter out those students who are neither motivated or able, leaving the universities with more capital to invest. The remaining students would therefore enjoy better facilities and teaching and therefore benefit more from their education and in turn contribute more to the state in the future. Deregulation may also help, as increased competition leads to increased efficiency with universities seeking to attract the best students and academics. This in turn may lead to the creation of “elite universities”, where the very best students would be taught alongside each other by top academics. The hope being that they will reap the rewards and go on to make a large contribute to society in later life. These universities would inevitable charge more, due to the greater value of their degrees.

However, many would take issue with some of these suggestions. The idea that academically able students would be excluded from tertiary education or would have to settle for “lesser universities” (after deregulation) seems not only unfair but also economically questionable. This is because it would mean students who would benefit greatly from a university education and who would in turn make greater future contributions to the country would be excluded. It could also lead to social problems, as many in traditionally egalitarian Germany would protest against the social injustice of this proposal.

What is clear, is that something does need to be done by the government to address the problem. A possible compromise solution would be to adopt the British policy of tuition fees being paid after graduation and even then only a specific percentage of income over a certain threshold. This would mean that students would not have to “risk” anything. They would only pay the fees if they did secure well paid employment. Also, students could take up jobs in lower paid sectors (such as teaching or NGO work) and not have to pay anything if they didn’t reach the threshold. There is also the possibility of implementing price discrimination whereby students from poorer backgrounds pay less, so as to insure that university entrance is decided by academic and not monetary criteria.
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dazmanultra
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#29
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#29
Middle class people by their definition earn more money than lower classes. It makes sense to make it easier for poorer people to go to university, does it not?

Then again, it should be easy for anyone with talent to go to university, no matter the background... but that is not feasible so the poorest must get helped first.
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Harry Potter
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#30
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#30
(Original post by dazmanultra)
Middle class people by their definition earn more money than lower classes. It makes sense to make it easier for poorer people to go to university, does it not?
Middle class students earn exactly the same as working class students.
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LH
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#31
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#31
I think the top-up system is the fairest way, to be honest. You pay more to go to the best universities but in the long term you should earn more anyway. The poorer students can pay less, which is obviously fair.

I don't know the Tories' policy on university fees - do they have one?
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AT82
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#32
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#32
(Original post by foolfarian)
The solution is to stop Darren, Gary, Tracey and Sharon who are doing a 3 year course in media studies at Scarborough University (minimum entry EE, average entry EE) from going to university.
(I'm fully against the drive to get everyone through university without taking mickey mouse courses into account)
J
Jesus that is very poor. Is Scarborough a proper university or is it a college? I can't believe a proper accredited university would take people on with so few points. Though there was an article in the evening news that the Manchester Met offred whis secret reperter a place on a chemestry degree course with just two D's (via clearing), Bolton let him in with just an E, Salford said he could only do an HND and get onto the degree that way, UMIST and Manchester told him to get lost.
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MattG
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#33
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when poorer students will not have to pay the top £3,000 will the gov pay the extra money to the uni or will it just be a reduced fee?

surely if the former is the case then the uni's that attract students from "richer" backgrounds (i.e cambridge, oxford, generalisation there i know) will be the ones who benefit most from full fees, when other uni's that may need the money more will not get money due to its inability to attract "richer" students
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AT82
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#34
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#34
(Original post by MattG)
when poorer students will not have to pay the top £3,000 will the gov pay the extra money to the uni or will it just be a reduced fee?

surely if the former is the case then the uni's that attract students from "richer" backgrounds (i.e cambridge, oxford, generalisation there i know) will be the ones who benefit most from full fees, when other uni's that may need the money more will not get money due to its inability to attract "richer" students
I would imagine it works like it does, the universities will get the same amount of money no matter how much the student pays. The LEA will pay the university the fees. The rest will be made up from the governmnet which is the case anyway. I don't pay tution fees my LEA does so the university gets just as much money from me.
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Muse
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#35
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It's interesting to look at some of the Conservative policies re: tuition fees. I think a lot of their policies are much more sustainable and even Charles Clarke has recognised this by making a compromise. Labour's policies have had three effects, so far, first to undermine the value of university degrees, by dishing them out to all-comers. The second, to shake all confidence in the fairness of admissions procedures. The third, tuition fees.
The middle-class stream of votes helped persuade ministers to abandon plans to introduce a graduate tax. Government documents have been released that show how "middle England" voters were the reasoning behind this change.
Some voters could not stomach the prospect of requiring rich students to subsidise poorer students by paying back more than the cost of their university course after they graduate through the tax system - at a time when such a move was ministers' favoured option
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AT82
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#36
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(Original post by timeofyourlife)
It's interesting to look at some of the Conservative policies re: tuition fees. I think a lot of their policies are much more sustainable and even Charles Clarke has recognised this by making a compromise. Labour's policies have had three effects, so far, first to undermine the value of university degrees, by dishing them out to all-comers. The second, to shake all confidence in the fairness of admissions procedures. The third, tuition fees.
The middle-class stream of votes helped persuade ministers to abandon plans to introduce a graduate tax. Government documents have been released that show how "middle England" voters were the reasoning behind this change.
Some voters could not stomach the prospect of requiring rich students to subsidise poorer students by paying back more than the cost of their university course after they graduate through the tax system - at a time when such a move was ministers' favoured option
There is confusion with some of their policies. The amount of places for proper university degrees will not be increased until 2010 therefore they won't be delvalued any more than they currently are. What the government has done is made sure there are more places on foundation degrees, HNDs, HNCs etc. Its these types of courses the government want to get people to do.

As for tuition fees I think they stink but I am beginning to see the government need to raise money from some where. Leaving university with £20k debt is just not on though.

Another policy I strictly disagree with is labours idea of making it easier (in terms of UCAS points) for working class students to get into university. Surely it should be on merit? I think that will just make a mockery of the entire system especialy on courses like mine. On my course (I don't know about others) there seem to be a direct relationship between the good students and how A level points they have.
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Muse
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#37
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
There is confusion with some of their policies. The amount of places for proper university degrees will not be increased until 2010 therefore they won't be delvalued any more than they currently are. What the government has done is made sure there are more places on foundation degrees, HNDs, HNCs etc. Its these types of courses the government want to get people to do.

As for tuition fees I think they stink but I am beginning to see the government need to raise money from some where. Leaving university with £20k debt is just not on though.

Another policy I strictly disagree with is labours idea of making it easier (in terms of UCAS points) for working class students to get into university. Surely it should be on merit? I think that will just make a mockery of the entire system especialy on courses like mine. On my course (I don't know about others) there seem to be a direct relationship between the good students and how A level points they have.
I have no problem with HNDs etc. but I don't like the way the government shroud it under the "50% into uni" 'catchphrase'.
I can see how the tuition fees would be beneficial, as universities (especially top research ones) can not financially survive for the foreseeable future. World-class unis do inevitably need more money to grow (as in you would have to pay more for somewhere in the top 10/20)I think the way the payments are banded is quite spurious though (as the original poster mentioned), as the two students would have the same degree and same earning potential when the money needs to be paid back.
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AT82
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#38
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#38
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
I have no problem with HNDs etc. but I don't like the way the government shroud it under the "50% into uni" 'catchphrase'.
I can see how the tuition fees would be beneficial, as universities (especially top research ones) can not financially survive for the foreseeable future. World-class unis do inevitably need more money to grow (as in you would have to pay more for somewhere in the top 10/20)I think the way the payments are banded is quite spurious though (as the original poster mentioned), as the two students would have the same degree and same earning potential when the money needs to be paid back.
The government have never said 50% of people into uni its just the media manipulating it to get good headline. As I've just posted in another thread (see the university section) I disagree with the variable top up fees 100%.
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Tina
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#39
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i think its worst for those who only just fall into the bracket of having to pay their own way.,....not exactly sure what the income is but in that case it seems really unfair that your parents arent earning that much and you still have to pay!
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Chicken
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#40
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#40
(Original post by amazingtrade)
The government have never said 50% of people into uni its just the media manipulating it to get good headline. As I've just posted in another thread (see the university section) I disagree with the variable top up fees 100%.
Yeah i've posted my opinion on that thread too. But i made a similar point to Vianna about middle class people receiving no benefits being more in debt at the end of university than those receiving benefits.
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