Equality of opportunity – unless you're one of the middle classes Watch

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Bigcnee
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#41
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#41
(Original post by Tina)
i think its worst for those who only just fall into the bracket of having to pay their own way.,....not exactly sure what the income is but in that case it seems really unfair that your parents arent earning that much and you still have to pay!
I think it is staggered to combat this (it is with most things).
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Tina
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#42
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also i think vocational education should be seen as just as good as uni we have shortages of plumbers/electricians! university style education doesnt suit everyone but they may be forced into it because it seems the best way to get a better career/higher pay. if this was done then those who wanted to go to uni...no matter which class could do so and those better suited to vocational would not be looked down upon but seen as equally good as a uni educ
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AT82
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#43
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(Original post by Chicken)
Yeah i've posted my opinion on that thread too. But i made a similar point to Vianna about middle class people receiving no benefits being more in debt at the end of university than those receiving benefits.
Tina - Under the current system if your parents earn less than £20,000 (joint) a year the LEA will pay all of your fees

Chicken - What do you mean by benefits? The LEA paying the fees?

I get my fees payed for me (my parents earn just under the barrier) but next year I will have to pay around £300. My parents have to scrape every penny just to get their car through theirt MOT and pay the mortage so there is no way they could afford to pay any tuition fees. When my sister goes to uni (if she does) god knows how my parents will cope.

I think the problem with the £20,000 a year barrier is that it does not account for parents disposable income. I am guessing you're parents are classic guess (I may wrong) but they have decent saleries but no actually spare money due to certain circumstances.
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thefish_uk
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#44
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(Original post by Tina)
i think its worst for those who only just fall into the bracket of having to pay their own way.,....not exactly sure what the income is but in that case it seems really unfair that your parents arent earning that much and you still have to pay!
Yeah,

Sad isn't it. Don't people use the money they earn after uni to pay rather than their parents? I don't see how the amount my parents earn should be any of anybody's business anyway.

I disagree with these huge "top-up fees" totally, and it's the better unis that really want them, which is sad because I want to go to a good uni. And they'll probably be coming into effect the year I'll be applying to university as well.
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thefish_uk
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#45
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
Tina - Under the current system if your parents earn less than £20,000 (joint) a year the LEA will pay all of your fees
How much would you have to pay if they earned, say, £20500 between them so they're just above the mark? Probably a lot more.

(Original post by Tina)
also i think vocational education should be seen as just as good as uni we have shortages of plumbers/electricians! university style education doesnt suit everyone but they may be forced into it because it seems the best way to get a better career/higher pay. if this was done then those who wanted to go to uni...no matter which class could do so and those better suited to vocational would not be looked down upon but seen as equally good as a uni educ
Aren't the government trying to get as many people into uni? That's so stupid, it'll stop it being respected as much. Isn't there already such a shortage of plumbers that they can charge whatever huge amounts they like and end up earning as much as some of the University-educated people?
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AT82
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#46
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(Original post by Tina)
also i think vocational education should be seen as just as good as uni we have shortages of plumbers/electricians! university style education doesnt suit everyone but they may be forced into it because it seems the best way to get a better career/higher pay. if this was done then those who wanted to go to uni...no matter which class could do so and those better suited to vocational would not be looked down upon but seen as equally good as a uni educ
This brings another discussion all together (god I am busy this morning!) I was being nosy at my old colleges courses last night and they did a plumbing course. The the entry grades were (at GCSE) were zero, it said you needed no formal qualifcations.

I think there has been a tendancy in this country for people with good GCSEs/A levels to go onto uni or go into a job doing management or somthing where as if you fail your GCSEs you if you're lucky go into construction or if not work in a super market.

I think a lot of people don't want to go into the construction industry simple because of the snobery around it. I had a joiner mate and he was constantly having a dig at me being at uni because he probably felt slightly insecure being a joiner.

Its a skillfull job though (I could not to do it) but it dosn't require you to use your brain in the same way. I had a job building PCs once and it was so boring as I wasn't using my head. I left after a few weeks.
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Tina
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#47
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(Original post by thefish_uk)
Yeah,

Sad isn't it. Don't people use the money they earn after uni to pay rather than their parents? I don't see how the amount my parents earn should be any of anybody's business anyway.

I disagree with these huge "top-up fees" totally, and it's the better unis that really want them, which is sad because I want to go to a good uni. And they'll probably be coming into effect the year I'll be applying to university as well.
the worst thing is it will create tiers in the system....the better unis will charge more...the ex-polytechnics will be cheaper....a selective system meaning we're still left with the original problem which the gvt says that the w/c are not benefiting! i dont see how their proposal will solve anything!
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Tek
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#48
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I agree entirely with foolfarian.

A) Why should the middle and upper classes have to fund Sharon's 3 year course in Communication Studies with Knitting at TVU??

B) Why should we have to support 50% of students going to University when 50% of students don't even manage 5 GCSEs at grades A* to C?

C) One thing the Government has completely overlooked is the fact that it's society who benefits from uni graduates: it just doesn't make any sense that Doctors should leave university £30000 in debt when we need more Doctors...
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Tina
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#49
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#49
(Original post by thefish_uk)
How much would you have to pay if they earned, say, £20500 between them so they're just above the mark? Probably a lot more.?
this is exactly my point....someone may just miss out on the benefits and they may be in no position to pay their own way!



[/QUOTE]Aren't the government trying to get as many people into uni? That's so stupid, it'll stop it being respected as much. Isn't there already such a shortage of plumbers that they can charge whatever huge amounts they like and end up earning as much as some of the University-educated people?[/QUOTE]

exactly! my aunt needed a plumber they were waiting for ages...and he charged them a LOT OF MONEY....because plumbers are in big demand....how will getting everyone to university help???? it will simply lower the value of a degree! if vocational educ was seen as being on the same level as a degree but only a different choice a lot of problems would be solved!
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thefish_uk
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#50
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#50
(Original post by Tina)
the worst thing is it will create tiers in the system....the better unis will charge more...the ex-polytechnics will be cheaper....a selective system meaning we're still left with the original problem which the gvt says that the w/c are not benefiting! i dont see how their proposal will solve anything!
Yeah. Oxford and Cambridge want to charge a fortune, don't they?

So the really rich people and the really poor people will go to Oxbridge out of their parents' pockets or from grants, with very few people in between being able to pay.

And "normal" people like me could want to go to a good uni but not be able to because it'd so much.
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AT82
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#51
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(Original post by thefish_uk)
Yeah. Oxford and Cambridge want to charge a fortune, don't they?

So the really rich people and the really poor people will go to Oxbridge out of their parents' pockets or from grants, with very few people in between being able to pay.

And "normal" people like me could want to go to a good uni but not be able to because it'd so much.
Thats why the system is so wrong. If people want to go to a good grade that is everybody's right as long as they have good A level grades. Money should not be an issue.
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Tina
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#52
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(Original post by thefish_uk)
Yeah. Oxford and Cambridge want to charge a fortune, don't they?

So the really rich people and the really poor people will go to Oxbridge out of their parents' pockets or from grants, with very few people in between being able to pay.

And "normal" people like me could want to go to a good uni but not be able to because it'd so much.
yeh exactly the government has forgotten the people "in between"
so people like me and you will come off worst under the new plans
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Tina
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#53
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
Thats why the system is so wrong. If people want to go to a good grade that is everybody's right as long as they have good A level grades. Money should not be an issue.
we might end up with a US style system....where money is the first issue for students choosing a university
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fishpaste
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#54
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The thing about the people in between is, they're alot richer than they think they are, with the upper class such a margin, the middle class are really the guys at the top.
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thefish_uk
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#55
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#55
(Original post by Tina)
we might end up with a US style system....where money is the first issue for students choosing a university
And you know what the USA is like...

Amazingtrade, do you think the system is fine and fair how it is right now? I don't know much about it, except the most they can charge is £1125 a year for the course and you have to sort out your own living.
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AT82
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#56
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(Original post by thefish_uk)
And you know what the USA is like...

Amazingtrade, do you think the system is fine and fair how it is right now? I don't know much about it, except the most they can charge is £1125 a year for the course and you have to sort out your own living.
What do you mean? I think the current system is fairer than the proposed system for 2006. I just think the government are medeling too much with this new system. Its almost getting like a dictatorship. There is too much of this get working class into uni crap.

I am stuck in the middle of the two classes, I was put up in a middle class background but not with middle class money if that makes any sense? My dads always had so called middle class jobs (he was a senior libararian and now he runs a small business). We have never had much money though. So I am kind of a like a middle class student on a working class budget.

From my point of view labours policies just don't seem to make sense.
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JSM
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#57
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#57
(Original post by Bigcnee)
The Fiscal Institute published (from a Conservative perspective, a rather
embarrassing) report detailing the research.

A capitalist society means that some will be richer than others.
Well all have the right to an education.
no, not all have the right to an education. how do you justify saying that.
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JSM
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#58
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#58
(Original post by dazmanultra)
Middle class people by their definition earn more money than lower classes. It makes sense to make it easier for poorer people to go to university, does it not?

Then again, it should be easy for anyone with talent to go to university, no matter the background... but that is not feasible so the poorest must get helped first.
so it is not feasible, so you should disrcimiante on the background of welath, isnt that the same as the previous system under which poor people had less of a chance.
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JSM
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#59
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#59
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
It's interesting to look at some of the Conservative policies re: tuition fees. I think a lot of their policies are much more sustainable and even Charles Clarke has recognised this by making a compromise. Labour's policies have had three effects, so far, first to undermine the value of university degrees, by dishing them out to all-comers. The second, to shake all confidence in the fairness of admissions procedures. The third, tuition fees.
The middle-class stream of votes helped persuade ministers to abandon plans to introduce a graduate tax. Government documents have been released that show how "middle England" voters were the reasoning behind this change.
Some voters could not stomach the prospect of requiring rich students to subsidise poorer students by paying back more than the cost of their university course after they graduate through the tax system - at a time when such a move was ministers' favoured option
triangulatiohn, whereby the labour party streals the conservative parties policies like the democrats under bill clinton.
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JSM
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#60
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#60
(Original post by amazingtrade)
Tina - Under the current system if your parents earn less than £20,000 (joint) a year the LEA will pay all of your fees

Chicken - What do you mean by benefits? The LEA paying the fees?

I get my fees payed for me (my parents earn just under the barrier) but next year I will have to pay around £300. My parents have to scrape every penny just to get their car through theirt MOT and pay the mortage so there is no way they could afford to pay any tuition fees. When my sister goes to uni (if she does) god knows how my parents will cope.

I think the problem with the £20,000 a year barrier is that it does not account for parents disposable income. I am guessing you're parents are classic guess (I may wrong) but they have decent saleries but no actually spare money due to certain circumstances.
do your parents need their car? What size house do they have? Questions like this mean that maybe they are choosign to prioritise the (little?) money that they do have for other things.
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