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Tek
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#1
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#1
Is it fair that middle and upper class students will leave with c. £22000 worth of debt from 2006 onwards?
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AT82
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#2
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(Original post by Tek)
Is it fair that middle and upper class students will leave with c. £22000 worth of debt from 2006 onwards?
£22,000 is is like 50p is for me for the upper classes. So yes its very fair. As for middle class the bounderies are not as clear as for if its fair ot not. Maybe it may make people think twice about going to university studying subjects that won't get them a job.
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Chicken
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(Original post by Tek)
Is it fair that middle and upper class students will leave with c. £22000 worth of debt from 2006 onwards?
Nope it isn't - which is why something has to get done about it. It will only effect those students who start in 2006+ (current year 11 students, and those now in year 12 who will take a gap year), but its not really fair because who really worries about university and debt before they are starting to go on open days and stuff? I know I didn't really worry about the debt aspect until i got to year 13 and started applying. But current students are protesting loads about it - the UEA union is very against top up fees, and have been to London last term to protest there. We even have posters to put up in our windows and stuff...

Also this debt can only be paid back by you once you are earning £20k a year or more, and you pay back ~10% of what you earn per annum. However many jobs don't pay £20k and it may take a while to work yourself up into a job that pays that much. Also, although they say the debt will get wiped after 25 years, it will mean you will go through most of your life with debt hanging over your head, and it won't look particularly favourable when it comes to getting a mortgage or borrowing money again. As it is, i'm gonna leave uni £12000 in debt which i think is plently enough and shouldn't be increased.
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Chicken
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
£22,000 is is like 50p is for me for the upper classes. So yes its very fair. As for middle class the bounderies are not as clear as for if its fair ot not. Maybe it may make people think twice about going to university studying subjects that won't get them a job.
I don't know that my subject will get me a job. There isn't a great demand for chemists, unless you are willing to work for pharmaceutical companies (and i have morals, so i wouldn't really want to work for one). And both my parents have worked very hard to get where they are now. And while they can afford to get me through university fairly trouble free, it will be a whole different story in 2 years when my brother goes.
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starry
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#5
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International students end up with 22,000 pounds of debt for one year!

So imagine 3 years. The poor souls.
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AT82
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(Original post by Chicken)
I don't know that my subject will get me a job. There isn't a great demand for chemists, unless you are willing to work for pharmaceutical companies (and i have morals, so i wouldn't really want to work for one). And both my parents have worked very hard to get where they are now. And while they can afford to get me through university fairly trouble free, it will be a whole different story in 2 years when my brother goes.
Yeah but there is always demand for people with science degrees even igf you don't go into that profession. A good degree is a good degree, I know an electricla engineering graduate who got a job as a manager in a none technical job. I was refering to people doing (I don't want to mention any subjects) certain things at less respect universities and HE colleges. There are some universities with employment figures as low as 75%.
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starry
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75%?!?!?!? For certain courses or for the university?
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Chicken
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#8
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(Original post by starry)
International students end up with 22,000 pounds of debt for one year!

So imagine 3 years. The poor souls.
Thats cos British universities charge them extortionate tuition fees (i hope Canadian uni's aren't like that!). But many international students don't come here for more than a year if they are undergraduates, and many come for a year to do a masters, or to do their PhD (which i imagine they get sponsered to do so its a bit cheaper).
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starry
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(Original post by Chicken)
Thats cos British universities charge them extortionate tuition fees (i hope Canadian uni's aren't like that!). But many international students don't come here for more than a year if they are undergraduates, and many come for a year to do a masters, or to do their PhD (which i imagine they get sponsered to do so its a bit cheaper).
Really? Most of the international students I know do their entire undergraduate studies in the UK for 3 years. Medics do 5 years and that is 30k year x 5! I feel sorry for them
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joka85
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The government is essentially saying that education is a right, and therefore everyone should have access to the best.

Food is also a fundamental right...Tesco has a finest range which is more expensive...just because some can't afford it...does that mean that it should be subsidised by those who can?? No, it doesn't.

Its consumer choice...if man X can afford a ferrari and man Y can't...so be it...why on earth should those who can afford it (through their own work) pay for those who can't....its a hypocritical policy...

a lot of the UK is free market...i can't see companies functioning as they do without the ability to price discriminate...how can you then run the university in a socialist manner...

i totally agree with a 3000 pound tuition fee...but the notion that the rich should pay more than the poor is ridiculous...they already do through progressive taxation!!! 3000 with the credit facilities that have been proposed is perfectly affordable and a good investment.
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Chicken
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#11
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
Yeah but there is always demand for people with science degrees even igf you don't go into that profession. A good degree is a good degree, I know an electricla engineering graduate who got a job as a manager in a none technical job. I was refering to people doing (I don't want to mention any subjects) certain things at less respect universities and HE colleges. There are some universities with employment figures as low as 75%.
Yes but at least its a qualification, that they probably wouldn't have got elsewhere.

I don't think top up fees are fair for anyone - as it is those for poorer backgrounds get help with fees and stuff already, and making them pay more only for them to get the same percentage in benefits isn't exactly gonna help them either. I don't think its fair that anyone has to pay these fees at all.

For example, my brother and one of his friends want to do the same degree at the same university (this is hypothetical). However the friend gets some benefits to help him through uni, my brother will not. So in 3 years they both end up with the same degree, same grades etc, except my brother (who has not received any help through benefits - only had money from my parents to live off) will be approximately £18000 in debt, the friend who got benefits may only be £12000 in debt. They have exactly the same qualification, so may get pretty similar paid jobs, but my brother is in the worse off position as he has more debt.

Now i'm not saying that benefits are unfair, i'm just pointing out that everybody will be in massive debt when they leave uni, and its equally unfair on higher class students to be in this much debt (especially as the students will have to pay it off themselves when they earn money - parents can't pay any of it off).
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AT82
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(Original post by starry)
75%?!?!?!? For certain courses or for the university?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...814056,00.html

I have seen courses with (in Guardian) with figures as low as 75% but that link shows the worst unis for jobs. East Londons employment rate is 83%.

Bolton Institute also does quite badly. Its surprising to see Royal Halloway in there though.
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Chicken
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#13
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(Original post by starry)
Really? Most of the international students I know do their entire undergraduate studies in the UK for 3 years. Medics do 5 years and that is 30k year x 5! I feel sorry for them
In my house we have 4 international students. The American girl was only studying here for one semester, the German guy and the Spanish girl are staying for the year (as are most of their friends) and its only the Chinese guy who is stayng for all 3 years. But none of them are being charged £22000 :eek: ! The tuition fees are higher, yes, but they pay the same for accomodation and living. But no way do they get into £22,000 of debt a year! And certainly medics will NOT be in £150,000 debt by the time they leave - that'll drive them to suicide!
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AT82
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(Original post by Chicken)
Yes but at least its a qualification, that they probably wouldn't have got elsewhere.

I don't think top up fees are fair for anyone - as it is those for poorer backgrounds get help with fees and stuff already, and making them pay more only for them to get the same percentage in benefits isn't exactly gonna help them either. I don't think its fair that anyone has to pay these fees at all.

For example, my brother and one of his friends want to do the same degree at the same university (this is hypothetical). However the friend gets some benefits to help him through uni, my brother will not. So in 3 years they both end up with the same degree, same grades etc, except my brother (who has not received any help through benefits - only had money from my parents to live off) will be approximately £18000 in debt, the friend who got benefits may only be £12000 in debt. They have exactly the same qualification, so may get pretty similar paid jobs, but my brother is in the worse off position as he has more debt.

Now i'm not saying that benefits are unfair, i'm just pointing out that everybody will be in massive debt when they leave uni, and its equally unfair on higher class students to be in this much debt (especially as the students will have to pay it off themselves when they earn money - parents can't pay any of it off).
I don't think its fair either luckily my sister will probably start uni this year so she will avoid the 2006 thing. I just can't see how else universities will get the money. I personaly think variable top up fees are a very bad idea all universities should charge the same. So say make it £1500 a year and raise extra money that way. This way students won't be looking for the cheapest universities it will be still be down to merit. If some universities charge £1100 and some chrage £3000 you will just end up with rich peoples unis and poor peoples unis.

I really don't know what the solution is to be honest.
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Chicken
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#15
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
I really don't know what the solution is to be honest.
No neither do i, but it does seem that we are the only country in the world that can't sort out its higher education funding (you don't here about this kind of thing going on in other countries).
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AT82
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#16
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(Original post by Chicken)
No neither do i, but it does seem that we are the only country in the world that can't sort out its higher education funding (you don't here about this kind of thing going on in other countries).
The situation is much worse in the USA though, for undergraduate courses in some of the best unis such as Havard $20,000 a year fees are common and there is no state support for poorer students. I think our system is fair compared to theirs but ours does not seem to be as good as other european countries. Though I have no idea what their systems are.
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starry
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#17
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(Original post by Chicken)
In my house we have 4 international students. The American girl was only studying here for one semester, the German guy and the Spanish girl are staying for the year (as are most of their friends) and its only the Chinese guy who is stayng for all 3 years. But none of them are being charged £22000 :eek: ! The tuition fees are higher, yes, but they pay the same for accomodation and living. But no way do they get into £22,000 of debt a year! And certainly medics will NOT be in £150,000 debt by the time they leave - that'll drive them to suicide!
Sorry my bad. Looking at the cambridge website:
Fees for intl students for a year for 2000-2001:
10k university fees
7k living expenses
3k college fees
=20k
Poor things!
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starry
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#18
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(Original post by amazingtrade)
The situation is much worse in the USA though, for undergraduate courses in some of the best unis such as Havard $20,000 a year fees are common and there is no state support for poorer students. I think our system is fair compared to theirs but ours does not seem to be as good as other european countries. Though I have no idea what their systems are.
I think UK residents and internats have to pay $45,000 a year if they study in Harvard.
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Tek
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#19
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#19
(Original post by joka85)
The government is essentially saying that education is a right, and therefore everyone should have access to the best.

Food is also a fundamental right...Tesco has a finest range which is more expensive...just because some can't afford it...does that mean that it should be subsidised by those who can?? No, it doesn't.

Its consumer choice...if man X can afford a ferrari and man Y can't...so be it...why on earth should those who can afford it (through their own work) pay for those who can't....its a hypocritical policy...

a lot of the UK is free market...i can't see companies functioning as they do without the ability to price discriminate...how can you then run the university in a socialist manner...

i totally agree with a 3000 pound tuition fee...but the notion that the rich should pay more than the poor is ridiculous...they already do through progressive taxation!!! 3000 with the credit facilities that have been proposed is perfectly affordable and a good investment.
Couldn't agree more.
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fishpaste
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I've never heard of costs influencing your choice of university in Britain, in the US my family are doing all sorts of mad things, like doing 2 years at junior colleges then doing another 2 at mrore expensive colleges, and some are just not going to the better places for lack for money. Huge shame.
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