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fishpaste
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#141
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#141
(Original post by JSM)
thank you, well my politics class (just started AS) is full of left wingers or central right (nominally Conservative) but could easily be tricked into espousing socialist views. So i really have to be, imagine i used to be a right little socialist. Can someone tell me why everyone keeps saying i know nothing about economics.
You're not applying the trickle down effect properly, and you're showing no awareness of the effects of things like poverty, unemployment and inequality of income on society as a whole.
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JSM
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#142
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#142
(Original post by fishpaste)
You're not applying the trickle down effect properly, and you're showing no awareness of the effects of things like poverty, unemployment and inequality of income on society as a whole.
how am i not applying trickle down properly, every time you spend something it goes into someone else's pocket. I understand poverty, unemployment and inequality of income (and the social problems that they supposedly cause)
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Muse
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#143
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#143
(Original post by JSM)
thank you, well my politics class (just started AS) is full of left wingers or central right (nominally Conservative) but could easily be tricked into espousing socialist views. So i really have to be, imagine i used to be a right little socialist. Can someone tell me why everyone keeps saying i know nothing about economics.
Central right views at AS? They do say that if you're right wing when you're young, you have no heart; and if you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain (or something like that, can't remember who said it). That would make me heartless at the moment I think!
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fishpaste
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#144
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#144
(Original post by JSM)
how am i not applying trickle down properly, every time you spend something it goes into someone else's pocket. I understand poverty, unemployment and inequality of income (and the social problems that they supposedly cause)
Before you said that by being filthy rich, the trickle down effect would take place, in the form of you hiring PAs etc. The trickle down effect only takes place when you inject into the circular flow of income, and it is flowing. That is to say if you build something, or invest in something, or export something, etc etc, then it can have a trickle down effect. But if you just move from government consumption into private consumption, or a poor person consuming into you consuming, then the trickle down effect does not contribute anything.

So you don't think there is no such thing as a merit good, like education or good health? And that everything is just a consumer good. I'm pretty sure you don't, given your attitude to income support, etc. If you don't, this is a lack of awareness, because these are universally agreed economic theories of the supply side.
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JSM
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#145
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#145
(Original post by timeofyourlife)
Central right views at AS? They do say that if you're right wing when you're young, you have no heart; and if you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain (or something like that, can't remember who said it). That would make me heartless at the moment I think!
i was told it was - if you dont vote labour before you are 20 you havnt a got a heart, if you dont vote tory before you are 40 you ahvnt got a head. what was wrong with what i said about trickledown - please explain, i dont wanna make the mistake again, because more and more i am getting people listening to me.
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JSM
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#146
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#146
(Original post by fishpaste)
Before you said that by being filthy rich, the trickle down effect would take place, in the form of you hiring PAs etc. The trickle down effect only takes place when you inject into the circular flow of income, and it is flowing. That is to say if you build something, or invest in something, or export something, etc etc, then it can have a trickle down effect. But if you just move from government consumption into private consumption, or a poor person consuming into you consuming, then the trickle down effect does not contribute anything.

So you don't think there is no such thing as a merit good, like education or good health? And that everything is just a consumer good. I'm pretty sure you don't, given your attitude to income support, etc. If you don't, this is a lack of awareness, because these are universally agreed economic theories of the supply side.
by being rich trickle down does work though because your money gets spent and then they spend it and it keeps flowing. i dont get what you are trying to say. ohh i get you are saying that you are spending money the government would have spent anyway. although i would disagree with this as the government does use money to pay off national debt and saves money, which is not actually invested. For example Gordon Brown's huge budget surplus which he jsut wasted in the NHS for no benefits.
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JSM
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#147
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#147
(Original post by fishpaste)

So you don't think there is no such thing as a merit good, like education or good health? And that everything is just a consumer good. I'm pretty sure you don't, given your attitude to income support, etc. If you don't, this is a lack of awareness, because these are universally agreed economic theories of the supply side.
but supply side economics is a bit useless as it doesnt always work anyway. Look at america and its obsession with supply side. Oops, maybe i shouldnt have said that. I would say everything is a consumer good.
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joka85
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#148
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#148
quite clearly we need income tax...JSM perhaps you've taken some things a little tooo far (good genes etc.) but you make some valid points...

however...i still don't think tax should be progressive...fixed rate of 25%, with 15% or exemption for those on salaries of 15k and below and 10k and below respectively.
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JSM
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#149
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#149
(Original post by joka85)
quite clearly we need income tax...JSM perhaps you've taken some things a little tooo far (good genes etc.) but you make some valid points...

however...i still don't think tax should be progressive...fixed rate of 25%, with 15% or exemption for those on salaries of 15k and below and 10k and below respectively.
maybe, although we still have yet to try a purely capitalist economy.

What you suggest seems sensible, but you need to cut spending - social security & NHS i think
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Kurdt Morello
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#150
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#150
(Original post by JSM)
i was told it was - if you dont vote labour before you are 20 you havnt a got a heart, if you dont vote tory before you are 40 you ahvnt got a head. what was wrong with what i said about trickledown - please explain, i dont wanna make the mistake again, because more and more i am getting people listening to me.
Was it Mills who said that? and its tory after 30 i think
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fishpaste
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#151
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#151
(Original post by JSM)
by being rich trickle down does work though because your money gets spent and then they spend it and it keeps flowing. i dont get what you are trying to say. ohh i get you are saying that you are spending money the government would have spent anyway. although i would disagree with this as the government does use money to pay off national debt and saves money, which is not actually invested. For example Gordon Brown's huge budget surplus which he jsut wasted in the NHS for no benefits.
Government spending, on whatever, will increase GDP. The basic formula

AD = C + I + G + (x-m), rates investment/government/consumption as exactly the same.

As for the idea of supply side growth, they will invest alot more than a consumer would, (how often do you decide to build a regional airport, or a school with your money?)

Investing in the NHS may seem unrewarding, but it's mismanagement which undermines spending there, not the idea itself.
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fishpaste
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#152
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#152
(Original post by JSM)
but supply side economics is a bit useless as it doesnt always work anyway. Look at america and its obsession with supply side. Oops, maybe i shouldnt have said that. I would say everything is a consumer good.
Where has supply side not worked? Unless you've suddenly turned into a hip lefty, you'll agree that supply side expansion is the ONLY route to economic growth.
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JSM
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#153
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#153
(Original post by fishpaste)
Government spending, on whatever, will increase GDP. The basic formula

AD = C + I + G + (x-m), rates investment/government/consumption as exactly the same.

As for the idea of supply side growth, they will invest alot more than a consumer would, (how often do you decide to build a regional airport, or a school with your money?)

Investing in the NHS may seem unrewarding, but it's mismanagement which undermines spending there, not the idea itself.
well consumers save and put money in banks who then form consortiums and carry out large scale investment, albeit not infrastructure (although there is that new private toll road). Also most schools/hospitals (and the skye bridge was) are being built under PFIs which are so badly negotiated that it doesnt make sense and the government is putting future governments in hock to the lenders. Who happen to be the public.
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JSM
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#154
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#154
(Original post by fishpaste)
Where has supply side not worked? Unless you've suddenly turned into a hip lefty, you'll agree that supply side expansion is the ONLY route to economic growth.
go and read some of paul krugman's theories on the failure of supply side economic theory. well theoretically i should agree supply side is, but as we live in servile states its not always true.
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fishpaste
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#155
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#155
(Original post by JSM)
well consumers save and put money in banks who then form consortiums and carry out large scale investment, albeit not infrastructure (although there is that new private toll road). Also most schools/hospitals (and the skye bridge was) are being built under PFIs which are so badly negotiated that it doesnt make sense and the government is putting future governments in hock to the lenders. Who happen to be the public.
or they spend it on ikea furniture. If they do put it into banks, they could invest in other countries, and create a debt crisis.

PFI is a horrid idea, but it doesn't undermine all forms of government spending, just PFI.
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fishpaste
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#156
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#156
(Original post by JSM)
go and read some of paul krugman's theories on the failure of supply side economic theory. well theoretically i should agree supply side is, but as we live in servile states its not always true.
Perhaps you could outline to me how it fails, without the supply side, how are we to grow? Fiscal policy ill only get you so far, if anywhere.
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JSM
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#157
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#157
(Original post by fishpaste)
or they spend it on ikea furniture. If they do put it into banks, they could invest in other countries, and create a debt crisis.

PFI is a horrid idea, but it doesn't undermine all forms of government spending, just PFI.
but most government infrastructure is now PFI (even ken {anti PPP} is thinking about i) and that was what you said governmetns need to invest in.
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JSM
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#158
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#158
(Original post by fishpaste)
Perhaps you could outline to me how it fails, without the supply side, how are we to grow? Fiscal policy ill only get you so far, if anywhere.
supply side theory is useful but is taken too far. especially in forms of cutting taxes within a servile state.
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fishpaste
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#159
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#159
(Original post by JSM)
but most government infrastructure is now PFI (even ken {anti PPP} is thinking about i) and that was what you said governmetns need to invest in.
I said we need direct investment in schools, health, in all regions, and a policy which reduces inequality of income. This is quite possible without PFI.
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fishpaste
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#160
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#160
(Original post by JSM)
supply side theory is useful but is taken too far. especially in forms of cutting taxes within a servile state.
Explain, please.
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