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People against Grammar Schools watch

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    Most people, or at least a very large minority, seem to be heavily against grammar schools, yet the substantially identical university entrance system is hardly ever attacked. To summarise, in the grammar system there was a test at age 11, the results of which determined if you went to a grammar school with other successful test-takers, or a secondary modern with other failed test-takers. The present university entrance system uses a set of tests at age 18 to decide which range of universities you can go to. Since they all cost the same and there aren't any significant distances in the UK, practically everyone goes to the best university they're able to get into, and the British university system is heavily stratified by ability as a result, with the better universities' student bodies being overwhelmingly composed of higher scoring students.

    So if you are against grammar schools, do you think that A levels should be abolished and everyone should go to whatever university they live nearest? [Or if you think it's unfair that I'm asking you to extend university entrance further than it is available already, that there be no selection after a bare 'pass': but you have to justify this distinction, because it's actually essentially the same as the 11+ too.]

    Before you answer, here are some issues you should ponder:

    1. Is it better for anyone that people of radically different abilities all have to be taught in the same lectures and by the same tutors?

    2. Would this new system actually be less iniquitous, or would it just give a vast advantage to people whose parents can afford to move to Oxford, Cambridge, central London, etc.?

    3. Is there any point in some people going to university or doing certain courses? For instance, is it really true that any school leaver could do a maths degree?

    4. Do your answers here agree with the answers you would give if these questions were asked for the 11+/grammar school system?
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    P.a.g.s?
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    I actually think they should bring the 11+ back. Then maybe the people who want to do well will be able to do so without being interrupted by stupid immature individuals who always disrupt the class.
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    At 11 years old, childrens' develoment varies enormously and so the 11+ is not often a fair or accurate way to measure aptitude or intelligence. A-levels are thus in no way similar to an entrance exam for a grammar school, in that they test knowledge and understanding of specific subjects. One cannot draw parallels between university and school admissions; being against grammar schools does not therefore mean one is against selection for university. University selection ensures that only those who are capable enough can complete a degree course.
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    (Original post by Gemma :)!)
    the people who want to do well will be able to do so without being interrupted by stupid immature individuals who always disrupt the class.
    Some people can do both at once. :awesome:
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    (Original post by Olivia_Lightbulb)
    At 11 years old, childrens' develoment varies enormously and so the 11+ is not often a fair or accurate way to measure aptitude or intelligence. A-levels are thus in no way similar to an entrance exam for a grammar school, in that they test knowledge and understanding of specific subjects.
    Indeed. Additionally, two children who achieve identical marks in the 11+ can be at totally different levels come GCSE, let alone A-Level.
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    (Original post by Diogeues)
    Indeed. Additionally, two children who achieve identical marks in the 11+ can be at totally different levels come GCSE, let alone A-Level.
    And people who get identical grades at GCSE can get different A Level results. And people who get identical A Level grades can get different degree results.

    :confused:
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    (Original post by Ivan91)
    Some people can do both at once. :awesome:
    I envy those people
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    university is different though. you don't have to go to uni, and you have to pay for it yourself.

    oh and on the point of people going to the uni closest to them. i am a big believer that everybody should go to the school in their catchment area, whether they like it on not. you shouldn't get a choice. it would raise standards. as said though, university is different.
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    Grammar schools work, when done properly.

    Mine doesn't.
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    (Original post by Olivia_Lightbulb)
    At 11 years old, childrens' develoment varies enormously and so the 11+ is not often a fair or accurate way to measure aptitude or intelligence. A-levels are thus in no way similar to an entrance exam for a grammar school, in that they test knowledge and understanding of specific subjects. One cannot draw parallels between university and school admissions; being against grammar schools does not therefore mean one is against selection for university. University selection ensures that only those who are capable enough can complete a degree course.
    At 11 years old intellectual ability will have more than surfaced in most children. Sure, some may develop slightly later but it's relatively easy for a child from a secondary school who has shown well above average grades to transfer. It's imperfections are far outweighed by the benefits, rather than trying to teach students of great ability and poor ability in the same classrooms and schools.

    (Original post by Diogeues)
    Indeed. Additionally, two children who achieve identical marks in the 11+ can be at totally different levels come GCSE, let alone A-Level.
    Of course, there are far more factors in achieving good GCSE results than there are in achieving a good result at the 11+. During their teenage years a lot of intelligent people simply fall into the wrong crowd or become completely rebellious against schooling.
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    As someone who went to a Grammar School (I live in Lincolnshire), I found that although my school was composed of people who passed the 11+, the abilities of my friends and classmates varied significantly, and in GCSE's there were many who only got average results (like me), and there were people who did exceptionally well, definitely more than at the comprehensive down the road.

    I agree that it takes more time for some children to mature in terms of their academic ability, and some may catch up after the 11+ has been taken, of course by then it is too late to ship them off to grammar school. I don't think grammar schools are the way forward, and I take the labour stance that new grammar schools shouldn't be built, but existing ones shouldn't close when they are excellent schools which offer children who have the ability, to progress and have access to an excellent education system.
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    (Original post by Gemma :)!)
    I actually think they should bring the 11+ back. Then maybe the people who want to do well will be able to do so without being interrupted by stupid immature individuals who always disrupt the class.
    What about those who are just naturally stupid, but are well-behaved?

    Why should we put up with them?
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    (Original post by Jonty99)
    And people who get identical grades at GCSE can get different A Level results. And people who get identical A Level grades can get different degree results.

    :confused:
    Of course- I meant that that time period (7-10) often brings about the most drastic changes in people's attitudes, though.
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    (Original post by AidanLunn)
    What about those who are just naturally stupid, but are well-behaved?

    Why should we put up with them?
    Okay- four catagories..

    Well behaved & clever = GRAMMAR SCHOOL

    Well behaved & not clever = NORMAL SCHOOL

    -----

    Badly behaved & clever = normal school in some special class for idiots

    Badly behaved & not clever = McDonalds (they'd end up there in the end, why carry on with education)



    Sorted :-)
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    Comprehensives + streaming by ability
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    the people who hate academic success attack grammar schools by getting rid of them. they have not the political power to get rid of universities. so instead they give everyone a grade A so universities can't pick the dumbos from the bright. this is how they attempt to comprehensivise them. and they also threaten the universities telling they must take a certain proportion of thick students from comps.
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    Just to say I am do research on what type of schools approve grades most for an overall area.

    In LEAs where more than a fifth of pupils attend Grammar Schools, GCSE results are on average for all pupils 443 points.
    Compare this to average of areas without any grammars, which is 418.

    This may seem not that bigger deal, but a 6% rise in results is pretty amazing and its equivalent to pretty much an extra whole GCSE or a grade rise in a majority of GCSE results. [I have the 6% right, but just take with a pinch of salt my number of GCSE's milarky, I need to double check the points system first.]

    In short, the results are there
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    (Original post by llys)
    Comprehensives + streaming by ability
    i think i agree with this.

    and more vocational courses at schools.
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    (Original post by llys)
    Comprehensives + streaming by ability
    Sorry forgot to add:

    + good teachers for all ability sets
 
 
 
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