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What does creation reveal about God as craftsman? watch

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    (Original post by suicidaloverbusiness)
    I admit, your point is indeed valid but I think you've omitted one of the key words in my question - craftsman. I'm not asking for God's revelation, i'm asking what his revelation as creator tells us about his craftsmanship.
    Okay, but I think it's still a very confident epistemology that takes our perceptions of the universe and then tries to reverse-engineer the purposes and qualities of the creator from them. This point has come out in the discussion really with the point about bad knees - if, if this is to be interpreted as God's craftmanship, who are we to say for sure what his purpose for bad knees might be? We're just guessing if we do say anything. And in guessing, we're not really talking about God but about "ourselves in a loud voice".

    In order to speak more confidently, we would need revelation. And my question is whether creation and the natural sciences are the right place to look for that revelation.
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    (Original post by Retrospect)
    Life, Death, Resurrection, etc. You are assuming that God's aim was to create mankind 'perfect' in a physical sense.

    For example, in the Qu'ran it states

    Al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage) 22:5 - O MEN! If you are in doubt as to the [truth of] resurrection, [remember that,] verily, We have created [every one of] you out of dust, then out of a drop of sperm, then out of a germ-cell, then out of an embryonic lump complete [in itself] and yet incom*plete [4] so that We might make [your origin] clear unto you. And whatever We will [to be born] We cause to rest in the [mothers’] wombs for a term set [by Us], and then We bring you forth as infants and [allow you to live] so that [some of] you might attain to maturity: for among you are such as are caused to die [in childhood], just as many a one of you is reduced in old age to a most abject state, ceasing to know anything of what he once knew so well. [5] And [if, O man, thou art still in doubt as to resur*rection, consider this:] thou canst see the earth dry and lifeless - and [suddenly,] when We send down waters upon it, it stirs and swells and puts forth every kind of lovely plant!

    So, in this sense the deterioration of human beings physically (and mentally) is seen as part of a process beginning with dust, conception and ending in resurrection.
    Well, why did God make human beings so incomplete. As a craftsman, why didn't God just make humans perfect. I am in no way whatsoever trying to assume that God's sole aim was to make mankind perfect. It's a question of why? For a diety like God, it should have been easy. To me, it shows shoddy crafstmanship. Your source merely indicates the process in which mankind was created, which doesn't beg the question why couldn't God have made humanity perfect.
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    (Original post by suicidaloverbusiness)
    Well, why did God make human beings so incomplete. As a craftsman, why didn't God just make humans perfect. I am in no way whatsoever trying to assume that God's sole aim was to make mankind perfect. It's a question of why? For a diety like God, it should have been easy. To me, it shows shoddy crafstmanship. Your source merely indicates the process in which mankind was created, which doesn't beg the question why couldn't God have made humanity perfect.
    Dust -> life, bones -> death, decay, dust -> resurrection. Deterioration is a process leading to death, turning to dust and then to resurrection where the decay/deterioration is reversed. Humanity wasn't made 'perfect' because this would disrupt the process of death (as we know it - from phys/mental deterioration) and resurrection. It's a process, a sort of cycle which ends in resurrection. It's a very interesting question, though. I believe it is the way it is because it demonstrates to us the existence of such a process... we can also draw on similar examples in our surrounding environment, such as the one outlined in that Qur'anic verse.
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    (Original post by philjw)
    Okay, but I think it's still a very confident epistemology that takes our perceptions of the universe and then tries to reverse-engineer the purposes and qualities of the creator from them. This point has come out in the discussion really with the point about bad knees - if, if this is to be interpreted as God's craftmanship, who are we to say for sure what his purpose for bad knees might be? We're just guessing if we do say anything. And in guessing, we're not really talking about God but about "ourselves in a loud voice".

    In order to speak more confidently, we would need revelation. And my question is whether creation and the natural sciences are the right place to look for that revelation.
    I agree. In order to acquire sufficient credible evidence, we must start at the very beginning. Although, I still feel as though you're ignoring the word craftsman and focusing a lot of emphasis on the rest of the question.

    It's not adamant that this discussion should concentrate its efforts on humanity and its flaws. I included the word creation within my question too, therefore anything that God created could also be considered as possessing shoddy craftsmanship. Take for instance, the creation of the sun on the fourth day in Genesis 1. What kind of craftsmanship is that? There was light on the first day, yet no sun or stars?!
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    (Original post by Retrospect)
    Dust -> life, bones -> death, decay, dust -> resurrection. Deterioration is a process leading to death, turning to dust and then to resurrection where the decay/deterioration is reversed. Humanity wasn't made 'perfect' because this would disrupt the process of death (as we know it - from phys/mental deterioration) and resurrection. It's a process, a sort of cycle which ends in resurrection. It's a very interesting question, though. I believe it is the way it is because it demonstrates to us the existence of such a process... we can also draw on similar examples in our surrounding environment, such as the one outlined in that Qur'anic verse.
    Even so. God could have made mankind 'better' in the sense of craftsmanship, if not completely perfect, which wouldn't have disrupted the process of eventual death.
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    (Original post by qasman)
    you're assuming the flaws are accidental. my point still stands. if there was no flaws, there would be no point of living.
    Well, why are we so far from perfect. Surely, God could have stretched that extra mile and made us 'better'.
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    (Original post by suicidaloverbusiness)
    God is seen as a craftsman creating humanity in His image and of course creating the universe out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo) but it seems His craftsmanship is pretty shoddy, especially in the case of humans. Take for example, the knee and back. Over time it deteriorates and becomes fragile
    Not to mention the fact that he's always blaming his tools.
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    (Original post by masterglen3)
    Maybe thats why Eve at the apple, maybe she needed to, that she was dying inside, that perfection and goodness were just too boring, maybe she needed unpredictablity, and adventure, maybe the monotony and predictability of a world that never goes wrong was too much to bear, maybe the snake didn't tempt her, maybe he just pointed out it was a way for her to go free
    That's a nice take on the story. We seem to assume that it was the snake that tempted her because snakes are symbolic for evil and possible omens. Perhaps, humanity's imperfections stemmed from Eve's act of eating the apple. Maybe, God made mankind to be perfect to begin with but events took a pivotal turning point when Eve succumbed to the temptation. After all she is our ancestor.
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    (Original post by suicidaloverbusiness)
    Even so. God could have made mankind 'better' in the sense of craftsmanship, if not completely perfect, which wouldn't have disrupted the process of eventual death.
    How? What is 'better'? 'Perfect'? Even in a 'sense of craftsmanship' it's impossible to say what this would be with regards to the human physical form. The way we are is part of the human experience; who knows how different things would be if it were any... different. There are also psychological effects of 'knowing' we are 'perfect', perhaps the concept of the fragility of life wouldn't exist or it would weaken belief/acceptance of death and resurrection, it could alter our behaviour/interaction with others in countless ways. It's such a complex issue that it's difficult to know where to approach it from.
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    (Original post by Profesh)
    Not to mention the fact that he's always blaming his tools.
    :hmmm: are you being sarcastic
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    (Original post by Retrospect)
    How? What is 'better'? 'Perfect'? Even in a 'sense of craftsmanship' it's impossible to say what this would be with regards to the human physical form. The way we are is part of the human experience; who knows how different things would be if it were any... different. There are also psychological effects of 'knowing' we are 'perfect', perhaps the concept of the fragility of life wouldn't exist or it would weaken belief/acceptance of death and resurrection, it could alter our behaviour/interaction with others in countless ways. It's such a complex issue that it's difficult to know where to approach it from.
    Better as in, with the abscence of say...deformities. Just generally better. I can't think of any decent examples for the moment being. Although, I can completely identify with the rest of your post in today's modern society; though, not in the days of creation.
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    (Original post by Charzhino)
    The intricacy of design at the fundamental level
    expand please
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    (Original post by suicidaloverbusiness)
    expand please
    specific distances/masses/reactions/sizes of fundamental matter. Electrons possesing precise charge for example
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    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    I don't know all of God's purposes, but presumably some are to eventually unite the universe to him, and clearly he, if he exists, allowed for a period where evil had power before that. So it doesn't seem that unreasonable that God had some purpose in allowing evil as well.
    Well, God created everything which means he either created evil or at least begot evil. I don't see how this relates to what I was saying before. :confused:
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    (Original post by Charzhino)
    specific distances/masses/reactions/sizes of fundamental matter. Electrons possesing precise charge for example
    Basically your referring to the creation of matter and whatnot being at the centre of creation.
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    (Original post by suicidaloverbusiness)
    Basically your referring to the creation of matter and whatnot being at the centre of creation.
    i dont quite get that but yes.
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    (Original post by Charzhino)
    i dont quite get that but yes.
    I don't understand what you're saying either. Damn, this is confusing. :confused:
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    (Original post by suicidaloverbusiness)
    Well, God created everything which means he either created evil or at least begot evil. I don't see how this relates to what I was saying before. :confused:
    So you'd imagine his purpose includes some sort of imperfection?
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    (Original post by Calumcalum)
    So you'd imagine his purpose includes some sort of imperfection?
    Hey! Now that's just twisting what i've said.
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    (Original post by suicidaloverbusiness)
    Hey! Now that's just twisting what i've said.
    OK, I'm bad at analogies, but I'll try another one. If someone is writing a letter and wants to tell them some important information (maybe their GCSE results), would it matter what envelope they used, or what kind of paper they were on, as long as they were good enough to let the person read the results? If the person was never intending to make a perfect envelope but was more concerned about the results and making sure they got to the student, would it really matter if the envelope wasn't perfect? Would it be a sign of bad craftsmanship?
 
 
 
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