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Do soldiers deserve any special kind of respect? watch

  • View Poll Results: Do soldiers deserve special respect over other professions?
    Yes, unconditionally
    89
    29.67%
    Only in certain cases
    112
    37.33%
    No, it is just another profession
    99
    33.00%

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    (Original post by QwentyJ)
    I'd wager that it would be pretty much the same outcome. As you said before, much of the Axis forces were indoctrinated to their leaders, hence their own conscience would be parallel to that of their respective dictators.
    I don't think it's fair to say that all or even most of the soldiers fighting for the axis powers agreed with genocide (note you're speaking about tens of millions of people here - 16m alone in Germany) but instead they wanted to serve their country and it was out of patriotism and wanting the best for their country rather than any evil desire to exerminate innocent people. I'd assume you wouldn't say every single troop agrees or even understands why Britain went into Iraq or Afghanistan (at least not when they were initially deployed) yet they still did it because they wanted to "serve their country" by being obedient to the government - something which I believe can be extremely dangerous if the wrong government is in power.
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    (Original post by Aimes_14)
    I don't think Soldiers deserve any kind of special respect. They go out there knowing that they will most likely get killed and they also kill others. So I don't see how they're helping anyone. A Soldier is just another name for a Murderer.
    If ever a foreign army wants to kill you - and in the future, they might - I hope that nobody comes to protect you.

    After all, a soldier is just another name for a murderer.
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    (Original post by FyreFight)
    If ever a foreign army wants to kill you - and in the future, they might - I hope that nobody comes to protect you.

    After all, a soldier is just another name for a murderer.
    Well if she's going to be killed by a foreign army then the soldiers involved in killing her would be murderers surely?
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    (Original post by Brutal Honesty)
    Well if she's going to be killed by a foreign army then the soldiers involved in killing her would be murderers surely?

    British soldiers, who I presume this thread is referring to and who she labelled murderers, would not be trying to kill her.

    She clearly considers the acts of British servicemen, who have killed to prevent those who would kill British citizens, murder. Hence she doesn't deserve, (and presumably would not want) their protection.

    She ought to consider herself lucky that she's not a Jew circa 1940.
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    (Original post by FyreFight)
    British soldiers, who I presume this thread is referring to and who she labelled murderers, would not be trying to kill her.
    I'm talking about the foreign soldiers. She didn't make any reference to nationality only soldiers generally.
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    (Original post by FyreFight)
    British soldiers, who I presume this thread is referring to and who she labelled murderers, would not be trying to kill her.

    She clearly considers the acts of British servicemen, who have killed to prevent those who would kill British citizens, murder. Hence she doesn't deserve, (and presumably would not want) their protection.

    She ought to consider herself lucky that she's not a Jew circa 1940.
    Jews were killed by German soldiers. Like I said she didn't make any reference to nationality only soldiers generally. You're proving her point by bringing up the Holocaust.
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    I think anyone who does a dangerous job deserves special respect, be it a soldier, a nurse, a firefighter, or something less obvious.
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    (Original post by Brutal Honesty)
    Jews were killed by German soldiers. Like I said she didn't make any reference to nationality only soldiers generally. You're proving her point by bringing up the Holocaust.
    In general, it was a very specific group of German soldiers who carried out mass killings of Jews, Slavs etc. Death squads like the Einsatzgruppen, and high ranking SS officers. Not, as quite a few believe, the Wehrmacht (sp?) itself.
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    (Original post by Brutal Honesty)
    Jews were killed by German soldiers. Like I said she didn't make any reference to nationality only soldiers generally. You're proving her point by bringing up the Holocaust.
    Was the thread is asking whether soldiers generally, including foreign ones who would willingly do us harm if it were in their national interest, deserve respect? If so that's a stupid question. I assumed the thread was posing rather more interesting question of whether British ones, who put their lives on the line to protect us, do.


    Her point is that no soldiers deserve respect, despite relying on British ones every single day of her life to deter would-be aggressors. If she thinks that the very people she owes her free existence to are nothing more than scum, she does not deserve their protection.
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    (Original post by Noam Chomsky)
    In general, it was a very specific group of German soldiers who carried out mass killings of Jews, Slavs etc. Death squads like the Einsatzgruppen, and high ranking SS officers. Not, as quite a few believe, the Wehrmacht (sp?) itself.
    That's the name they were given but it was a vast number of soldiers involved in the operation, including the ones who transported them to the concentration camps, those involved in finding Jews, gypsies etc and obviously those who finally executed them. When you consider around 15m were found, rounded up and killed including groups other than simply Jews, it becomes obvious that it isn't simply a tiny section of the military involved in this huge operation.
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    (Original post by Brutal Honesty)
    That's the name they were given but it was a vast number of soldiers involved in the operation, including the ones who transported them to the concentration camps, those involved in finding Jews, gypsies etc and obviously those who finally executed them. When you consider around 15m were found, rounded up and killed including groups other than simply Jews, it becomes obvious that it isn't simply a tiny section of the military involved in this huge operation.
    Yes, you're right there. Logistically it would have been impossible for a small number of soldiers to carry out the Final Solution. Please do not think I am doubting the scale of the Holocaust, because that is very dangerous territory, only that it wasn't the whole German Army who were directly involved. In fact, those on the front line fighting the Allies may have had very little idea of the atrocities caused. God knows how we got onto this!

    Godwin would be proud... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
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    (Original post by FyreFight)
    Was the thread is asking whether soldiers generally, including foreign ones who would willingly do us harm if it were in their national interest, deserve respect? If so that's a stupid question. I assumed the thread was posing rather more interesting question of whether British ones, who put their lives on the line to protect us, do.


    Her point is that no soldiers deserve respect, despite relying on British ones every single day of her life to deter would-be aggressors. If she thinks that the very people she owes her free existence to are nothing more than scum, she does not deserve their protection.
    I thought it'd be unwise to refer to only a single nationality of soldiers when you'd have to rule out actions of soldiers working for other governments. This is about the occupation itself, and what it demands (obedience to your government in spite of your own conscience) and whether it is something to admire.

    Her point was this:

    I don't think Soldiers deserve any kind of special respect. They go out there knowing that they will most likely get killed and they also kill others. So I don't see how they're helping anyone. A Soldier is just another name for a Murderer.
    I don't think your argument applies in this context which is self defence on our own shores from invaders rather than going "out there".
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    (Original post by Noam Chomsky)
    Yes, you're right there. Logistically it would have been impossible for a small number of soldiers to carry out the Final Solution. Please do not think I am doubting the scale of the Holocaust, because that is very dangerous territory, only that it wasn't the whole German Army who were directly involved. In fact, those on the front line fighting the Allies may have had very little idea of the atrocities caused. God knows how we got onto this!

    Godwin would be proud... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
    Godwin's law is obviously going to apply when we're talking about the morals of soldiers :p:

    As I have said before, most German soldiers would not have known the scale of the atrocity until afterwards so during the Holocaust itself they would have simply being carrying out their individual duties on behalf of the government. Afterwards many soldiers committed suicide and suffered from long term psychiatric problems after knowing what they had been involved in so clearly this is a case where the actions of soldiers have been incredibly damaging to people and resulted in genocide. Is the role of the soldier (someone who obeys government orders without question) something to be admired?
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    (Original post by Brutal Honesty)
    Godwin's law is obviously going to apply when we're talking about the morals of soldiers :p:

    Is the role of the soldier (someone who obeys government orders without question) something to be admired?
    Ha yeah, not a huge leap. For me, dutiful obedience is never something to be admired, considering the somewhat questionable motives of the government in question. I would have wholeheartedly supported a US deserter during the Vietnam Conflict for example.

    Then again, that's probably got quite a lot to do with my political alliances and beliefs.
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    (Original post by Cybele)
    Um, no, I was just giving my reason for being interested in your opinion. It was a pretty bold statement you made. But don't bother.
    it was an opinion, I don't have to justify it.


    and believe me, if you'd heard the stories/seen the photographs/been there on these occasions (all these things can't be sourced, of course, but they still remain true) whilst growing up in Ireland you'd feel the same
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    I respect them as much as I respect other people I come into contact with, the regular soldier is not deserving of any more respect than someone else.
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    (Original post by Shortarse1)
    So being a doctor, safety inspector or aid worker is as dangerous as being a soldier?

    Actually, Afghanistan wasn't about appeasing the Americans, although why let facts get in the way of a good rant ay?

    And if they are fully aware of the risks when they join, that makes them deserving of respect. But they also sign up under the condition that should they be harmed performing their role they will be properly treated afterwards. I think you'll find ALL are volunteers in the Army. And also, last time I checked they all get paid as well, unless you thought the TA didn't get pai.

    Frankly your post is filled with ignorance and naivity, I shan't bother picking thought the rest.

    To the negger: The neg rep you left me has ruined my life, I can no longer sleep or focus on anything else other than the neg rep you left me. Please forgive me for my sins of a differing opinion.
    Exactly
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    (Original post by Noam Chomsky)
    I'm a self confessed cynic...but I don't think that has been the case since the Second World War, probably. Nowadays, especially for the US but to some extent Britain as well, soldiers are dying to protect the business interests of mega-corporations.
    Perhaps I should have written 'to protect.... if there is any conflict that emerges and threatens them'.
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    (Original post by h0ple55)
    Perhaps I should have written 'to protect.... if there is any conflict that emerges and threatens them'.
    It's a tough debate this, because it asks more and more questions as it goes on. I have great respect for the Allied Soldiers who fought in WW1 and WW2. Incredible bravery at a time (especially in WW1), when technology in warfare was poor and often did nothing to help the common Soldier.

    When it comes to more modern conflict, a different story really.With regards to Afghanistan and Iraq, I sympathise with British Soldiers because of the massive underfunding from New Labour throughout the early part of the conflict. But ideologically and morally I complete disagree with the War, and for this reason I do not respect the Soldiers who are there, despite their valiant efforts in the field.
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    Wouldn't it have just been easier and more to the point for the OP to make a thread with the title "I'm a leftie who disagrees with the Afgan and Iraq wars."...?

    (Some conservatives also disagree, but they still on the whole respect the obvious heroism and the warrior ethos of soldiers)
 
 
 
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