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    (Original post by Organ)
    You know, just because you and your mates are a bunch of misinformed scumbags it doesn't mean that everybody is.
    You obviously aren't aware that this guy and his mates make up 99% of doctors, med students and applicants.
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    (Original post by W.H.T)
    Well my post was orginally intended to 'renal' who only suggested house prices as the problem for doctors 'settling down' with a home.

    I admit that I didn't know that doctors would be moved around the country, mainly because I have never heard of this in my experiences with the NHS and from talking to medicine applicants. Frankly, I find this a bit strange because surely the aim of this 'training' period is to get doctors upto the required standard, so isn't it disruptive to the learning process?

    So how long would each 'job' last ?
    How can you consider continuing this discussion if you just don't understand the very basics of medical training and employment in this country?
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    (Original post by darksolidus.snake)
    The clinical trials and various drugs which Doctors test , are those created by doctors or medical scientist. From what doctors told me it seemed they observed and recorded the effects of the drug but the drugs and equipment themseleves are designed by scientists after input from the doctors. It is a mutual relationship with one party getting all the monetary reward.
    This is getting even more surreal. I don't know who you think gets monetary reward from research, but it isn't doctors or scientists.

    Frankly this thread gets more ridiculous with every post.
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    (Original post by darksolidus.snake)
    After a post doc a scientist has put similar effort in.

    Have you ever done a medical degree? Med students have 5+ hours of lectures every day right from the beginning - compare this to other subjects which only get one or 2 in the first few weeks. Towards fourth and fifth year their holidays get cut down to fit the course in. Physics and chemistry students don't get that.

    So the guy who made the meaningless transistor and changed civilization as we know it or the guy who gave us meaningless electricity or small things like making our lives easier through better mobiles with more functionality are doing meaningless work. Give me a Break.

    Yes, 2 indavidual people. Not every scientest goes on to make a discovery like that, do they?

    No one except Gary Neville thinks that footballers are worth it. We are talking about scientists here.

    If a scientest creates something, they can patent it and gain royalties which will be much more than a doctor's salary. Do you disagree with that too?

    Again other jobs like designing bridges or circuits require continuous inovative thinking and hard work for which extra hours are not even paid. Its the BMA's excellent negotiation skills after 2003/2004 that has made Doctor's contracts so lucarative.

    Yes, but do they actually make as big an impact to people's lives as doctor's do? If you break your leg, you want someone to fix it, yes? Look at the advances in medicine over the last 500 years. Only recently have we found cures for horrible diseases and surgical techniques that mean patients can have operations with very short recovery periods and not have to worry about the problem re appearing.
    What do you have against doctor's anyway?

    My uncle worked very hard to become a consultant, and he sat exams right up until he was around 40. Do other professions do that?

    His hours during the 90s were 7am - 8pm Monday to Saturday every week. Now that is not including on call. He did however save hundreds, maybe thousands of lives in the process. He now earns about £100k a year, tell me why he does not deserve it?
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    People in other science professions such as petroleum engineering and chemical engineering get paid very well.
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    (Original post by 1992LP)
    How old is he/she and what area are you in?

    Sorry about the unemployment by the way
    He's probably about 50 odd.

    I worked in Satellite Communications as an RF Systems Engineer but got bad depression and left. Been scratching around for 5 years on and off the dole.
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    Consultants average income has increased to £110,000 which is good money.
    You're about 43-45 years old when you can reach that level of income.
    Once you're there, you're there and you'd be living very nicely. Who cares about the income beforehand when the nature of your job is great and the income is still quite respectable before consultant level?

    Doctors should quit moaning about working 50-60 hours a week, most financiers work that much too.
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    Surgeons should get paid more, they cut you out which is more risky and its about life and death situation as well. Not all doctors do surgeries you know.
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    (Original post by Land-based mammal)
    People in other science professions such as petroleum engineering and chemical engineering get paid very well.
    Unlikely to be paid as much as a consultant medic unless they move out of the technical discipline and into management. I work with some of the world's leading industry experts in my area and they aren't paid as much as a consultant medic. The value for expertise differs between sectors clearly. I not sure I really fully accept the idea that this difference in pay is 'danger money' rather than the fact that doctors have a more successful pay lobby within a public organisation.
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    (Original post by W.H.T)
    Well my post was orginally intended to 'renal' who only suggested house prices as the problem for doctors 'settling down' with a home.

    I admit that I didn't know that doctors would be moved around the country, mainly because I have never heard of this in my experiences with the NHS and from talking to medicine applicants. Frankly, I find this a bit strange because surely the aim of this 'training' period is to get doctors upto the required standard, so isn't it disruptive to the learning process?

    So how long would each 'job' last ?
    Nope, Renal definitely mentioned moving house "every year or two," which is exactly what we've got to face. Not much chance of settling down and getting a mortgage - a few people manage it but they are a fraction of the general doctor population.

    For at least the next 4 years if not much longer, I will be moving hospitals every year if not more frequently. If I somehow manage to get together enough money in that time to put a deposit on a house (it's not just about paying off the mortgage!) how on earth should I decide where it should be?

    Anyway, I'm not getting into the rest of the argument because I think there's too much misinformation on both sides (though predominantly the non-medic one), but thought I should speak up for that particular point.
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    (Original post by the666thmessiah)
    I agree. Doctors are like footballers; they shouldnt get as much as they do.
    :lolwut:
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    (Original post by W.H.T)
    true but only if you manage to fight off at least 10 other people for a place at a top uni, get a 2.1 or a 1st class degree and then somehow convince the employer that they should give you the job over hundreds of other applicants. :rolleyes:
    You're right, that's nothing like Medicine. At all.
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    (Original post by ChemistBoy)
    Unlikely to be paid as much as a consultant medic unless they move out of the technical discipline and into management.
    What do you think 'consultant medics' do?
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    Nurses should be paid more
    My mum is a ward sister, but got her job doing pre-op assessments because they realised that it would be more cost effective- as the consultant was doing the exact same job, but getting paid 4x as much!
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    Originally Posted by 1992LP
    Have you ever done a medical degree? Med students have 5+ hours of lectures every day right from the beginning - compare this to other subjects which only get one or 2 in the first few weeks. Towards fourth and fifth year their holidays get cut down to fit the course in. Physics and chemistry students don't get that.
    Obviously you think only Doctor's Have to put effort in uni while the rest waste their lives partying and not even the most brightest students in other courses work even close to what doctor's work.

    Yes, 2 indavidual people. Not every scientest goes on to make a discovery like that, do they?
    No they dont but they do contribute to making that discovery possible, little by little, thats how research works, its a slow and painful process with progess at each stage.

    If a scientest creates something, they can patent it and gain royalties which will be much more than a doctor's salary. Do you disagree with that too?
    That is true but many patents are now by big companies and they get the major share because they have the resources to conduct what are usually very expensive experiments.

    Yes, but do they actually make as big an impact to people's lives as doctor's do? If you break your leg, you want someone to fix it, yes? Look at the advances in medicine over the last 500 years. Only recently have we found cures for horrible diseases and surgical techniques that mean patients can have operations with very short recovery periods and not have to worry about the problem re appearing.
    Many of these cures and operations were made possible by the equipment created by scientists, MRI, XRAY ,drugs etc. Doctors play a big part as well,no one is denying that.

    What do you have against doctor's anyway?
    I am sorry if it came across that way but I actually respect Doctor's very much, many members of my family are doctors. I just was saying that difference in salary is too much.
    Chartered Engineer Salary 2003 = 49K
    Doctor 2003= 67K
    Uptill 2003 it was fine.

    Chartered Engineer Salary 2010 = 49K-55K
    Doctor 2010= over 100K

    My uncle worked very hard to become a consultant, and he sat exams right up until he was around 40. Do other professions do that?
    No exams but courses have to be taken in every profession because of advancements.

    His hours during the 90s were 7am - 8pm Monday to Saturday every week. Now that is not including on call. He did however save hundreds, maybe thousands of lives in the process. He now earns about £100k a year, tell me why he does not deserve it?
    Great for your uncle , I can guarantee you that another guy in another profession might have worked just as hard to get half that.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    This is getting even more surreal. I don't know who you think gets monetary reward from research, but it isn't doctors or scientists.

    Frankly this thread gets more ridiculous with every post.
    I should have been more clear, the monetary reward for the trials is with the drug companies but the salary that a doctor recieves generally is much higher than what a scientist recieves from hospitals or whatever other sources. Both do important work.

    Except for the attack on other professions (any of them) ,the thread is not really that ridiculous.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    I'm not sure you would recognise a 'life or death decision' if it smacked you in the chops.
    given Renal's current role i think he's very much in a position to ask that, as a Nurse working in emergency care there were life and death decisions several times a week if not several times a day and even in the relatively insulated position of my current tertiary specialist role i've made life or death decisions on a regular basis ( or perhaps in the eyes of some people they weren't but life threatening cardiac arrythmias are generally life threatening in pretty short order ... ( pulseless VT def is )
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    (Original post by TomInce6666)

    Working hours and being on call ruin lots of family life. A civil engineer can enjoy overseeing a project in the city and go home to his wife at 5pm. Often doctors dont.

    do you know many professional engineers ?

    because your assertion does not fit in with the working pattern of senior engineers i know ... ( or perhaps doing site visits on a saturday or sunday morning with my dear old dad was a figment of my imagination, as was his 36 hours straight stint to resolve a problem to get the plant back in a state where it could function - OK he wasn't in civils but there's a fair amount of civils in building and commissioning a new food factory...)


    we've not even mentioned ConDaM, corporate manslaughter and the rest...
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    (Original post by darksolidus.snake)
    First of all I do think that Doctor's should be paid well but an average salary of over 100K is a bit excessive.

    Most often the reason provided is Stress , Life and Death Decisions, Length of Training, Difficulty of getting into Medical Schools.

    Every job has stress involved granted Life and Death situations are different but how often do you have to deal with life and death decisions as a Doctor and if your a civil engineer in the long term you are responsible for more lives.

    If you do a Bachelors, Masters, Phd, Post doc you have same length of training in other subjects but don't get paid nearly enough.

    Not every bright student becomes a Doctor even if he can get into a medical school, many choose other professions but are not rewarded as well.
    I think GPs are overpaid, but I think heart surgeons (and the likes) are definitely worth it. Then of course there's the age old problem of where is the line between them.
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    (Original post by lechaton-x)
    Nurses should be paid more
    My mum is a ward sister, but got her job doing pre-op assessments because they realised that it would be more cost effective- as the consultant was doing the exact same job, but getting paid 4x as much!
    You sure it was the consultant doing the pre-ops? That's crazy! They usually use a foundation doctor for pre-op assessments- paid around £22K.
 
 
 
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