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my brother has failed medicine what advice to give him? watch

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    (Original post by ImWithTheBand)
    It seems bizarre that med schools look for empathy in their prospective candidates but are ares seemingly unable to demonstrate empathy themselves.
    It isn't at all when you think about it.
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    Dog eat dog world unfortunately.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    It isn't at all when you think about it.
    You should really back-up that statement with a reason or two, if you think about it.
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    (Original post by Jordan H)
    If he wants it hard enough, he will succeed.
    This is ridiculous, you sound like an x-factor contestant.
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    (Original post by ImWithTheBand)
    You should really back-up that statement with a ,reason or two, if you think about it.
    Fine, I have no problem rubbishing your poorly thought out non-sequitur with a reason or two.

    You said; "It seems bizarre that med schools look for empathy in their prospective candidates but are ares seemingly unable to demonstrate empathy themselves."

    It's not bizarre at all, empathy is a well recognised requirement for a doctor and it follows naturally that those admitting doctors into the profession have a preference for candidates who display it. The medical schools as entities themselves are providing medical care in any way shape or form, therefore there is no reason to hold them to the same standards as a doctor.

    Although medical schools might have a duty to be 'empathetic' to their students they have a higher duty to the NHS, the GMC and ultimately the public to provide safe, competent doctors - making students feel all happy and warm inside is significantly less important.

    What is more, most medical schools could easily be considered empathetic. To say that they aren't because one student is ejected having met quite clearly defined failure criteria is nonsense. What's more, in this case the student was given plenty of opportunity to remedy the situation. I think the view that somehow the school is being harsh and unsympathetic is questionable.

    Finally, being empathetic does not mean that you have to do whatever someone else wants. It means that you have the capacity to share the emotions of another being. It does not mean that you have to share those feelings all the time. What's more, being empathetic means that you can understand what a person might be feeling but does not mean that you could or should do something to ameliorate that.

    Happy?
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    (Original post by Renal)
    The medical schools as entities themselves are providing medical care in any way shape or form, therefore there is no reason to hold them to the same standards as a doctor.
    Aren't medical schools staffed by people who are themselves doctors?
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    (Original post by ImWithTheBand)
    Aren't medical schools staffed by people who are themselves doctors?
    So? All the medical schools will have a significant number of clinicians on staff, however, in those roles they are non-clinicians and the students are not patients.
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    (Original post by pinoy07)
    thanks digitalis, i do agree with your points especially about him letting the school know as soon as it occured. i do think however, that because a person was too ashamed or wanted to work through it themselves that it should not count against them. telling people after the exam may seem like making excuses but what do you do if you think you can succeed and then fail, u explain the situation.
    Yes his resit was a second chance but not a realisitc chance. from the 20 or 25 so people who sat the resit only 5 or 6 passed.I know you must be thinking like i was, why wasnt he one of those ppl and even though I did see him put a lot of work into his resit and he seemed optimistic about it but i dont think he truly beleive he could cover the workload of revising the two years (instead of the semester).
    he has told me about someone who lied about having family problems and has got through and i know he is probably thinking that he should have done the same so he could have a chance.

    he is taking full responsiblity for his failures but his state during that time must have drastically affected him. im going with him tomoro to his uni as he wants to talk to the student union and a careers advisors. i might try and find some of his friends to see what he was like because one of his housemates in the past did talk to me saying they were worried bout him but then things died down so ill try get more info.

    i dont know about you guys but i believe all students who failed their exams shud b given the chance at redoing the year. only those whose professionalism is the course is poor should be kicked out
    You hit the nail on the head with your final statement. It IS a case of professionalism that he didn't let the university know. Even if he did think that he would succeed, he should have let them know that he was having problems...at the very least it would have covered his own backside! You mention that he says he should have followed someone who lied about his family problems as if it is something naughty to declare when you are having problems, on the contrary! It is taking responsibility for your own health.

    Why did he not have a realistic chance? Because so few people passed the resit? That's nonsense.

    As I said, matriculation into medical school =/= graduation. There is no need to automatically let people resit a year after being given a chance to resit, unless you have well documented extenuating circumstances. As for the 'lying friend', only serious family events (e.g. death of a close relative, I'm not even sure grandparents dying counts at BL) would have held.
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    Medic 13??" So you're what, barely starting GCSEs??

    Please sod off, at least from giving us your wisdom re medical school.

    OP - Exhaust every appeal process necessary and possible - once you're kicked out of a course, no medical school in the UK will accept you without a virtually miraculous intervention.
    It does not take a medic school student to advise somebody to realise their dreams. If you didnt notice, I was not giving any technical advice on the matter, only the brief advice that I think he should try.

    I was just trying to help, am I not allowed an opinion?
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    (Original post by Renal)
    This is ridiculous, you sound like an x-factor contestant.
    Just stating a fact, and trying to add some hope into proceedings.
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    (Original post by Jordan H)
    Just stating a fact.
    Don't be so stupidly naive. Nobody gets anything in this world because they 'want it' or because they 'deserve it'. The sooner you learn this the better for you. Grow up, wise up and stop spreading meaningless false hope.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    Don't be so stupidly naive. Nobody gets anything in this world because they 'want it' or because they 'deserve it'. The sooner you learn this the better for you. Grow up, wise up and stop spreading meaningless false hope.
    I agree, things do not always happen the way we 'want it' or 'deserve it'. But if we do not try, or put the effort in, the probability of us getting what we 'want' or 'deserve' decreases vastly, do you not agree?
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    (Original post by Jordan H)
    It does not take a medic school student to advise somebody to realise their dreams. If you didnt notice, I was not giving any technical advice on the matter, only the brief advice that I think he should try.

    I was just trying to help, am I not allowed an opinion?
    Its not that you're not allowed to give an opinion, but can you see how your views might not be qualified? I wouldn't tell a architect how to design a house. Can you see how especially in threads like this where quite specialist advice is needed a wishy washy motivational speech (I'm sorely tempted to say PDS) is perhaps not the most helpful.
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    (Original post by jinglepupskye)
    He isn't limited to medical schools in this country. And it does seem unlikely that he would be accepted in any university in this country - which is something that he should stress when he goes to his appeal. He should be able to claim extenuating circumstances.

    If he is refused then his other option is the Biomed degree. So if he completes the Biomed degree successfully there is nothing to stop him from applying to a med school in Australia, Canada, New Zealand or America. I chose those countries because he may not have a second language.
    I wouldn't count on getting to med schools in US and Canada, the competition is much worse there.

    He would have a good chance in eastern countries like Poland, Slovakia or Romania, those are good programs, and language is not an issue, the programs are in English and they are tailored to European standards.
    The problem is paying full cost (6,000-11,000 Euro).

    In other ways , your brother is lucky - he has a caring and supportive family.

    Good luck to both of you.
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    (Original post by Renal)
    So? All the medical schools will have a significant number of clinicians on staff, however, in those roles they are non-clinicians and the students are not patients.
    Are you saying doctors' empathy is fake and switched on only when they're dealing in a doctoratient scenario? A prospective medical student isn't a clinician and an admissions tutor isn't a patient but the latter looks for evidence of empathy in the former. It is therefore bizarre that medical school staff don't themselves display a bit more empathy in such circumstances.

    The OP's brother might be thoroughly depressed now, recover in his third year and never again suffer with depression, througout a long and successful medical career. You, on the other hand, might sail through your medical training, with your black and white thinking, only to suffer debilitating and long-lasting depression at 26, that will blight your life and make you quite unable to work ever again. Would it be reasonable in the latter circumstances for the NHS/the State to withold any sort of sickness benefit?
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    (Original post by ImWithTheBand)
    Are you saying doctors' empathy is fake and switched on only when they're dealing in a doctoratient scenario? A prospective medical student isn't a clinician and an admissions tutor isn't a patient but the latter looks for evidence of empathy in the former. It is therefore bizarre that medical school staff don't themselves display a bit more empathy in such circumstances.

    The OP's brother might be throughly depressed now, recover in his third year and never again suffer with depression, througout a long and successful medical career. You, on the other hand, might sail through your medical training, with your black and white thinking, only to suffer debilitating and long-lasting depression at 26, that will blight your life and make you quite unable to work ever again. Would it be reasonable in the latter circumstances for the NHS/the State to withold any sort of sickness benefit?
    As Renal has already said, empathy means trying to understand how someone is feeling. It doesn't mean ditching all your principles and your duties to the NHS/GMC/general public because someone wants you to. And your analogy with sickness benefit really doesn't fit. Most medical schools are very supportive if they are aware there is a problem. The trouble is, in this case they weren't, and being told all this stuff about the student's depression after the fact makes a considerably weaker case than if they were aware before the exams.

    He hasn't been thrown out without being given a second chance - that was offered in the resit he has already failed. While he perhaps has grounds to make an appeal for another chance, I don't think it's hugely unfair if, on considering all the circumstances, he isn't given one.
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    first thing you must do is see the docotor to treat your depression.

    If you dont do that, you wont be able to do anything else properly.
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    (Original post by Wangers)
    Its not that you're not allowed to give an opinion, but can you see how your views might not be qualified? I wouldn't tell a architect how to design a house. Can you see how especially in threads like this where quite specialist advice is needed a wishy washy motivational speech (I'm sorely tempted to say PDS) is perhaps not the most helpful.
    Yes I understand. Fair enough.
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    While he perhaps has grounds to make an appeal for another chance, I don't think it's hugely unfair if, on considering all the circumstances, he isn't given one.
    Agreed.

    Someone failing because they can't organise themself. Twice. And then getting depressed about it.

    Hardly 'failed because primary carer to sick/dying relative' stuff is it.
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    (Original post by ImWithTheBand)
    Are you saying doctors' empathy is fake and switched on only when they're dealing in a doctoratient scenario? A prospective medical student isn't a clinician and an admissions tutor isn't a patient but the latter looks for evidence of empathy in the former. It is therefore bizarre that medical school staff don't themselves display a bit more empathy in such circumstances.

    The OP's brother might be thoroughly depressed now, recover in his third year and never again suffer with depression, througout a long and successful medical career. You, on the other hand, might sail through your medical training, with your black and white thinking, only to suffer debilitating and long-lasting depression at 26, that will blight your life and make you quite unable to work ever again. Would it be reasonable in the latter circumstances for the NHS/the State to withold any sort of sickness benefit?
    Let me draw an extreme example to prove a point:

    Someone who is not empathetic naturally can learn to at least appear to give a ****, they might get a few more complaints through their career due to a more abrupt nature; contrast that to someone who is the cuddly teddy bear king of the world, but knows little medicine - you can't get away with not knowing medicine. You might pass some exams, but if you havent worked it will show, and it will be patients who suffer.

    Medical schools have a duty to turn out competent compassionate doctors - his getting kicked out is not a judgement on his personality fitness, nor is it a extended debate about who some hypothetical person might do - It is a judgement on his competence for that level and thus the sutubility to progress.
 
 
 
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