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Kurdt Morello
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Fry)
Because they are benefiting and will be in a position to pay once graduated..?
See that question mark shows u are uncertain of what u are saying - think about those who start on £20,000 salary - these people are only marginally better off than 15,000 income earners yet they have to pay off debts over 25 years - maybe they would like to buy a house or start a family - this tuition fee nonsense might hinder such plans
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AT82
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#22
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#22
(Original post by JSM)
actually he said bottom 30%
Yes 30% of the population will fall into that catrogory, but you will find its like 5% if that of these people that will actualy go to university. My university is considered quite working class and only 25% of people there are from working class backgrounds.
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JSM
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#23
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#23
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
you pro-tuition fee lobby people seem to neglect the position of the middle class student which comprise the vast majority of the uni student population. Why forsake their position to let more working-class students in to the uni system
well i would agree with that view
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Kurdt Morello
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#24
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#24
(Original post by JSM)
hehe, he would wop you on that argument, the things that wernt mentioned were that the taxpayer will fund EU students to the same degree as internal students and they will also be able to apply for bursaries (i think the second). And graduates pay more tax when they come out the other end as they go on to high earning jobs.
JSM what argument are u replying to - i am really confused by this post - please explain
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Kurdt Morello
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#25
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#25
(Original post by JSM)
well i would agree with that view
merci beaucoup monsieur
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AT82
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#26
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#26
(Original post by vienna95)
ye, i thought she was going to raise a legitimate concern of the middle classes, but then she started almost crying about having to pay bills to keep her house warm ..and how she would be no better off than a porter. i wonder how many porters would own a 4 bedroomed detached house.
Yeah I don't think she made students look very good, she just gave food for the idots that think all students are tax dodgers etc. Also I love the way all the parents said "books" and "alchohol" which is probably where most the money goes was never mentioned

I am with Blair on the fact if people have the grades and want to go to uni they should be able to though. I support that 100%.
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JSM
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#27
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#27
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
JSM what argument are u replying to - i am really confused by this post - please explain
the one you posted, tony blair would beat you. I just said i thought it unfair that EU students will benefit from taxpayers to the same degree as UK students.
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Kurdt Morello
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#28
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#28
(Original post by amazingtrade)
Yeah I don't think she made students look very good, she just gave food for the idots that think all students are tax dodgers etc. Also I love the way all the parents said "books" and "alchohol" which is probably where most the money goes was never mentioned

I am with Blair on the fact if people have the grades and want to go to uni they should be able to though. I support that 100%.
Make the damn a-levels harder then
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Kurdt Morello
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#29
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#29
(Original post by JSM)
the one you posted, tony blair would beat you. I just said i thought it unfair that EU students will benefit from taxpayers to the same degree as UK students.
cut their funding and make them pay big-style
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AT82
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#30
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#30
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
Make the damn a-levels harder then
But thats not fair on the people that may have genuine difficulties at A levels but will thrive on a degree. Life is not black and white.
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Kurdt Morello
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#31
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#31
(Original post by amazingtrade)
But thats not fair on the people that may have genuine difficulties at A levels but will thrive on a degree. Life is not black and white.
but life should be simpler - if u want a university education make good at A-levels - the degree will become far more valued and the university a more prestigious institution - if people want vocational subjects there should be separate unis for this - like in France
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AT82
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#32
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#32
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
but life should be simpler - if u want a university education make good at A-levels - the degree will become far more valued and the university a more prestigious institution - if people want vocational subjects there should be separate unis for this - like in France
But we already have this system employers know that a degree from Oxbridge, Durham etc is better than one from Salford. Oxbridge type universities are already extremely valued so I don't see what the problem is. Its not like Blair is saying everybody should be able to go to to top 20 unis.

I am not annoyed by places like HE colleges giving out degrees because I know my Salford degree will probably be worth more etc.
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Ben.S.
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#33
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#33
(Original post by amazingtrade)
I still don't agree with the top up fees but I am not against charging students more as universities need more money. I just think they are going the completly wrong way about it. Also tieing into the 50% target thing I think the Aim Higher campaign should be scrapped.
The concept of top-up fees doesn't worry me as much as that of DIFFERENTIAL top-up fees.

Ben
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Kurdt Morello
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#34
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#34
(Original post by Ben.S.)
The concept of top-up fees doesn't worry me as much as that of DIFFERENTIAL top-up fees.

Ben
ooooooh - he has brought in that which Charles Clarke bet his mortgage on to deny - 'i bet my mortgage that variable top-up fees won't be here in even 10 years time'
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AT82
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Ben.S.)
The concept of top-up fees doesn't worry me as much as that of DIFFERENTIAL top-up fees.

Ben
Yeah thats what I am mainly worried about, universities like mine (Salford) try very hard to attract good students from the local area that may not afford to move out (the average ucas point score at my uni has increased to 20 (old system)).

When these variable top up fees are introduced my university will probably only be able to charge say £1500 because of Salford's not so good reputation but given crime is down 61% this year towards Salford students, see the guardian this can only improve. However if they can only charge this amount then my university sadly won't have enough money to spend on education. Having said that in terms of facilities my uni has no problems funiding them.

My other problem with these top up fees is that some of the brigtest students may be detered going to to more expensive universities simply because of the cost. This will limit the amount of good students these universities have access to and possible lower standards slightly. That would be an extreme case though.
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AT82
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#36
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#36
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
ooooooh - he has brought in that which Charles Clarke bet his mortgage on to deny - 'i bet my mortgage that variable top-up fees won't be here in even 10 years time'
In otherwords there isn't anything more certain that these top up fees are going ahead. I really do hate this government so much.
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mikesgt2
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#37
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#37
(Original post by vienna95)
audience: im going to whinge because i want something from nothing.
tony: i appreciate your point, but it is far more generous than at present and there is no burden until u begin to earn. the other option is public taxation, ive chosen top up fees..
audience: im going to whinge because i want something from nothing.
tony: are you deaf?
I totally agree. I don't think this policy is perfect but when will the Government ever get any credit for anything? Can you even imagine the uproar if the Government had said they were going to raise taxes to pay for university education.

Firstly, we should give credit to Blair for submitting himself to public scrutiny in this way. He did this for Iraq, he recently spent an hour taking questions on a radio phone in and now he has done this newsnight thing. I think it is impresive and good for the public that we are able to find out exactly why the government has chosen a particular policy.

Also, the whole idea of top-up fees has been interpretated wrong I think. It will be a lot cheaper for poorer students, and yes it will be more expensive for 'middle class' students but, let's be honest, we can afford it. That whinging medical student was totally wrong, the loans arn't 'real' loans. People are fine with having credit cards but when it comes to a student loan payed off in accordance with ability to pay, once you have a decent salary, with very low interest they get really worried. That medical student will have a substantial salary and should stop moaning; I thought Blair made that point fairly clear.

I could write more, but it's late...
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AT82
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#38
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#38
(Original post by mikesgt2)
I totally agree. I don't think this policy is perfect but when will the Government ever get any credit for anything? Can you even imagine the uproar if the Government had said they were going to raise taxes to pay for university education.

Firstly, we should give credit to Blair for submitting himself to public scrutiny in this way. He did this for Iraq, he recently spent an hour taking questions on a radio phone in and now he has done this newsnight thing. I think it is impresive and good for the public that we are able to find out exactly why the government has chosen a particular policy.

Also, the whole idea of top-up fees has been interpretated wrong I think. It will be a lot cheaper for poorer students, and yes it will be more expensive for 'middle class' students but, let's be honest, we can afford it. That whinging medical student was totally wrong, the loans arn't 'real' loans. People are fine with having credit cards but when it comes to a student loan payed off in accordance with ability to pay, once you have a decent salary, with very low interest they get really worried. That medical student will have a substantial salary and should stop moaning; I thought Blair made that point fairly clear.

I could write more, but it's late...
I'm middle class and I can't afford it. As said its not the topup fees I disagree with as such its just the whole business of the £15k limit for grants and the variable top up fee.
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Fry
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Kurdt Morello)
See that question mark shows u are uncertain of what u are saying - think about those who start on £20,000 salary - these people are only marginally better off than 15,000 income earners yet they have to pay off debts over 25 years - maybe they would like to buy a house or start a family - this tuition fee nonsense might hinder such plans
No the question mark was questioning you.

If you watched the program all the way through and ignored the crying audience members then the logic speaks for itself. There is no better way of funding universitys avaliable at the moment, this system is affordable and the tax payer will still be paying for you to goto university.

The problem seems to be that people are against the whole idea of tution fees. Did anyone else notice the point he made about Universitys getting more money than primary and secondary schools in total? If you can goto university then surley you shouldnt do it whilst worsening anothers education?
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Fry
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#40
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#40
(Original post by amazingtrade)
I'm middle class and I can't afford it. As said its not the topup fees I disagree with as such its just the whole business of the £15k limit for grants and the variable top up fee.
Why cant you afford it, your going to be earning a good income before you have to start paying anything. Why should your education be free why indeed should you get intrest free loans on the education that will ultimatley benefit you?
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