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Getting irrtated by the governments social engineering of classes. Watch

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    So, watching question time:
    'Most university students never get a chance to go to University because of the disadvantage in their lives'

    The only disadvantage i've noticed is a lot of these younger students aren't aware of how much financial aid they get. And especially in my very large family, the 13 years olds are told by their parents 'University is for the rich'.

    The MP's just seem to treat us like complete charity cases who constantly need help in every little thing we do, like they pity us... Yes we do need a little more assistance but their tone of pity i seem to constantly hear is really irritating me...

    If i want something, i'm more than capable of working and achieving it. I dreamed of University since i was about 5, and i worked as hard as i possibly could to get here.

    I'm lower class.
    I worked between 24-30 hours a week on top of A levels earning about 650 a month.
    To be fair i didn't particularly need to do that, but i wanted to go on World Challenge to Costa Rica, and afford nice things which my mum couldn't give...aka a computer.

    I worked my ass off more than anyone else in my school to get to where i am now, and i made it to a Russel group University. I had a lot of family problems for example close family members trying to commit suicide the night before exams.

    Now in University, i get 6.2k a year from the government in living costs. I got another £300 bursary from the University (which i didn't apply for in first year since i thought someone else might need it more. However this year i actually needed it...private landlords are *******s), other bursaries i could apply for, and hardship funds of 700 if required. I'm second year so i'm getting another job, i'll be working all summer and probably will earn about a grand over summer.

    I have more than enough money to fund my higher education, graciously given by the tax payer and government.

    And i live in Edinburgh, the most expensive city to live in outside London.

    So why do i constantly hear MP's saying how we 'need to help those from lower backgrounds'... These should be our main priority etc

    Why increase tuition fees and then give out more in maintenance loans 'to help those from lower backgrounds'...I certainly don't need anymore in living expenses and would be happy for the money to go elsewhere, like straight to the University.

    I'm proud that i come from a lower class background and had to work quite hard at times finance wise and life wise. Luckily i've not had to worry so much at Uni.

    Or am i missing something here? Are there actually a lot of lower class students out there completely unable to finance education because of not enough aid?


    The impression i'm getting at the moment is it's going to be middle class screwed over, not the lower class.
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    There is no such thing as class

    It is just a dividing line or mechanism implemented by the ruling elite to turn people against each other.

    when you say "I'm lower class" No you're not. You're a human being
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    Tinfoil hat time.
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    (Original post by AshleyT)

    Or am i missing something here? Are there actually a lot of lower class students out there completely unable to finance education because of not enough aid?
    Yes. In lot of unis (especially in the south of england) loans aren't enough to cover cost of living. The max loan outside of London is around £5000, the average cost of living for a student in say Bristol is between £7500 - £10,000/year.

    Upfront cost of university (i.e. cost of living) puts off far more students than tuition fees.

    You could bridge this gap with a combination of university bursary + part-time work, but this is a highly risky strategy as you've no-idea upfront what you'll qualify for or if you'll be able to find a job.

    Understanding bursaries is tricky enough for someone with a good knowledge of the university system. For someone who's going to be the first one in their family applying to uni without much support from their school, it can be a nightmare.
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    (Original post by ttx)
    Yes. In lot of unis (especially in the south of england) loans aren't enough to cover cost of living. The max loan outside of London is around £5000, the average cost of living for a student in say Bristol is between £7500 - £10,000/year.

    Upfront cost of university (i.e. cost of living) puts off far more students than tuition fees.

    You could bridge this gap with a combination of university bursary + part-time work, but this is a highly risky strategy as you've no-idea upfront what you'll qualify for or if you'll be able to find a job.

    Understanding bursaries is tricky enough for someone with a good knowledge of the university system. For someone who's going to be the first one in their family applying to uni without much support from their school, it can be a nightmare.
    Edinburgh's the most expensive Citys outside London I've been told, and we don't get an increase in grants like London people do. Quite a few people i've known from other Uni's seem to be paying around 75pw in rent whereas we wont find anywhere less than 90 unless you're lucky.

    I managed the entire of first year comfortably with no job or bursary...

    Rent + bills = 390 x 12 = 4680
    Food: 25 x 25 (say i'm at uni 25 weeks of the year when im not working) = 625

    Leaves 1k left. 500 per semester spending money...
    I suppose I don't have to worry about transport costs to and from University though....and I don't go home at all during the semester...

    Idk...maybe i just don't spend enough...
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    (Original post by AshleyT)
    Edinburgh's the most expensive Citys outside London I've been told, and we don't get an increase in grants like London people do. Quite a few people i've known from other Uni's seem to be paying around 75pw in rent whereas we wont find anywhere less than 90 unless you're lucky.

    I managed the entire of first year comfortably with no job or bursary...

    Rent + bills = 390 x 12 = 4680
    Food: 25 x 25 (say i'm at uni 25 weeks of the year when im not working) = 625

    Leaves 1k left. 500 per semester spending money...
    25 weeks ? - most English universities have a year length of between 38-40 weeks.

    But here's the breakdown the University of Manchester gives for yearly costs:

    Accommodation £3,700
    Meals £1,450
    Books and stationery £360
    Clothes £360
    Local transport £490
    Other general living expenses £1,340
    (eg photocopying and printing, laundry, phone calls, consumables, entertainment, sports, cooking equipment etc)
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    (Original post by Duncan Idaho)
    There is no such thing as class

    It is just a dividing line or mechanism implemented by the ruling elite to turn people against each other.

    when you say "I'm lower class" No you're not. You're a human being
    class in this country wasn't implemented consciously, it developed organically, it wasn't designed to turn people against each other as marxists would have you believe.
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    (Original post by Duncan Idaho)
    There is no such thing as class

    It is just a dividing line or mechanism implemented by the ruling elite to turn people against each other.

    when you say "I'm lower class" No you're not. You're a human being
    So why do unions refer to themselves as the working class so much?

    I agree with you on your first point unsure about the second, but it certainly seems like no its implemented by those at the bottom of the social construct rather than those at the top.
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    (Original post by ttx)
    25 weeks ? - most English universities have a year length of between 38-40 weeks.

    But here's the breakdown the University of Manchester gives for yearly costs:

    Accommodation £3,700
    Meals £1,450
    Books and stationery £360
    Clothes £360
    Local transport £490
    Other general living expenses £1,340
    (eg photocopying and printing, laundry, phone calls, consumables, entertainment, sports, cooking equipment etc)
    Are you serious?
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    :facepalm:


    So what do you want OP? A medal for being a martyr?
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    (Original post by Barden)
    :facepalm:


    So what do you want OP? A medal for being a martyr?
    Where did i imply i wanted a medal from anyone?
    Im happy with my achievements, i don't need recognision from anyone...

    I was simply wondering if other students seriously struggle financially to the point that they work as hard as possible and still can't afford to go to Uni.
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    (Original post by LawBore)
    Are you serious?
    Too much or too little?
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    (Original post by AshleyT)
    Too much or too little?
    Far, far too much. My books and stationery must cost just over £100.

    Decent pair of shoes= £40, let's say we buy two pairs.
    Pair of jeans= £10, let's have three.
    A decent suit can be as little as £15 from a charity shop, so we'll have one.
    Five t shirts and a jumper, £65,
    A winter coat £80.

    Still nowhere near, and this is assuming people entirely relace their wardrobe yearly, which they don't.
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    TBH giving help to someone is too easily translated into giving more money to someone when that's not necesarily the real problem - Tuition fees funded out of the softest loan you'll ever have aren't a real reason not to go to uni if you're from a poor background. IMO the problem is poorer kids tend to internalise low expectations from their parents and teachers.

    I don't understand why on earth you'd deliberately leave a bursary you're entitled to burning a hole in some bank account, they don't gather all the unpaid money back and divide it among your most deserving peers.

    And I don't understand what you mean by government social engineering, looks more like social darwinism from this lot.
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    (Original post by AshleyT)
    Where did i imply i wanted a medal from anyone?
    Im happy with my achievements, i don't need recognision from anyone...

    I was simply wondering if other students seriously struggle financially to the point that they work as hard as possible and still can't afford to go to Uni.

    But when talking about the financial side of uni, it shouldn't be about whether its feasible with maximum effort or not.

    It should be about whether everyone can get into uni with the same amount of effort or not.


    How is it right that one person has to mop up floors for minimum wage every spare second they have, just so they can afford university education, whilst the next person has never had to do a day's work in their life?

    Not to mention that it de-levels the playing field in terms of stress/fatigue/morale levels and their relation to academic performance.
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    (Original post by LawBore)
    Far, far too much. My books and stationery must cost just over £100.

    Decent pair of shoes= £40, let's say we buy two pairs.
    Pair of jeans= £10, let's have three.
    A decent suit can be as little as £15 from a charity shop, so we'll have one.
    Five t shirts and a jumper, £65,
    A winter coat £80.


    Still nowhere near, and this is assuming people entirely relace their wardrobe yearly, which they don't.

    Am I abnormal for almost never needing to buy new clothes?


    Sure I'll occasionally buy something because I like it, but I can safely say that I haven't needed new clothes for at least 2 years, probably 3 or 4...
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    (Original post by Barden)
    But when talking about the financial side of uni, it shouldn't be about whether its feasible with maximum effort or not.

    It should be about whether everyone can get into uni with the same amount of effort or not.


    How is it right that one person has to mop up floors for minimum wage every spare second they have, just so they can afford university education, whilst the next person has never had to do a day's work in their life?

    Not to mention that it de-levels the playing field in terms of stress/fatigue/morale levels and their relation to academic performance.

    I don't know any students that work in cleaning jobs. Plus almost all students get at least 3-4 months off during summer in which to work. I don't see why the standard we are aiming to achieve is to place the poorest 10% of students into the extremely privileged position that only the wealthiest 10% enjoy.
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      Hopefully this will make a difference inasmuch as those unis which intend charging £9,000 a year will be compelled to admit more students from underperforming schools - the bane of the less advantaged:

      "Students from comprehensive schools are more likely to achieve a better degree than pupils from independent schools with similar A level grades, a study suggests.

      The five-year study, funded by the Government and educational organisations including the Sutton Trust, also found that students from comprehensive schools outperformed grammar school students. It said that universities shoiuld take into account the type of school that candidates come from.

      The study comes as universities seeking to charge tuition fees of up to £9,000 a year are under pressure to take more students from underperforming schools"
      source: The Times newspaper 3/12/2010

      It has been suggested for a long time that this is the case...those from disadvantaged backgrounds with similar A-level results to those from independent or grammar schools achieve better outcomes...and now that the evidence is plain for all to see, it is morally encumbent upon the government to refuse those universites who are proposing to charge £9,000 the opportunity to do so, unless they can prove that their intake is majorly comprised of those from underperforming secondary schools.

      That will really give credence to their professed desire to increase social mobility.
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      (Original post by LawBore)
      Far, far too much. My books and stationery must cost just over £100.

      Decent pair of shoes= £40, let's say we buy two pairs.
      Pair of jeans= £10, let's have three.
      A decent suit can be as little as £15 from a charity shop, so we'll have one.
      Five t shirts and a jumper, £65,
      A winter coat £80.

      Still nowhere near, and this is assuming people entirely relace their wardrobe yearly, which they don't.
      That's fine...tis what i was thinking. I don't really buy expensive clothes. Asda is fine for me lol

      Books can be expensive though, just one of my books last year was 50quid, and no doubt others will have even more expensive ones.
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      (Original post by Barden)
      But when talking about the financial side of uni, it shouldn't be about whether its feasible with maximum effort or not.

      It should be about whether everyone can get into uni with the same amount of effort or not.


      How is it right that one person has to mop up floors for minimum wage every spare second they have, just so they can afford university education, whilst the next person has never had to do a day's work in their life?

      Not to mention that it de-levels the playing field in terms of stress/fatigue/morale levels and their relation to academic performance.
      But what's wrong with having to work a little harder for it so long as finance wise - it doesn't cause stress or the need to drop out of Uni?

      An 8 hour saturday job at A levels is hardly cutting massively into social time or going to cause school work problems. My flatmate at Uni has wealthy parents who pay her tuition fees straight up, she still works 15 hours a week.

      [B]And i did a cleaning job[/B. Nothing wrong with it. On the contray it was a really nice job to have, even if a large portion of it was cleaning toillets etc.

      I understand it's not exactly 'fair' some are born into lower backgrounds and may have to work harder, whereas some are born into rich families and never have to work.

      But working for what you want is good for a person..And it's not like we're born in Africa, where if you're that poor it's near impossible to achieve what you want too. In the UK, you work hard enough, you can pretty much achieve anything...And the government just seem to continually take that away.

      I hope i damn well got into Edinburgh because I was one of the best students...rather then because of my economic background and they were 'making up statistics'.
     
     
     
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