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Is Spain an example how to deal with stirkes? Watch

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    While we in London are now starting to have bi-monthly tube strikes, announced cabin crew strikes and weekly student strikes and at the end only innocent citizens are negatively affected, the government doesn't do anything. It doesn't care what the people strike about and it cares equally little about the inconvenience and suffering normal people have to go through.

    Spain on the other hand takes matters in hand, sends in the army to replace the striking air traffic controllers and calls a state of alert in order to be able to charge striking traffic controllers and all that within a couple of hours.

    I think the UK government should fly to Spain and take a lesson in strike management!

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    From the bbc webpage:

    Striking Spain air traffic controllers return to work


    Most of Spain's air traffic controllers have returned to work and airspace has reopened, after a walkout grounded flights and stranded thousands.

    The government had imposed emergency measures not seen since military rule ended in 1975, threatening to prosecute workers who refused to end the strike.

    Officials said 250,000 people had been affected by the walkout, amid a long-running dispute about working hours.

    Ministers warned that disruption could continue for up to 48 hours.

    Works minister Jose Blanco said the situation was improving, and all Spanish airspace had now reopened.

    But he added: "Normality will take some time, between 24 and 48 hours, if the controllers return to work as they must."

    Airport authority AENA said some flights had already begun to leave.

    But most airlines have already cancelled the majority of their flights in and out of the country until Sunday morning.

    The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Madrid says there is a long backlog of flights, and crowds of frustrated passengers still do not know how or when they will get home.

    Continue reading the main story
    Analysis

    Sarah Rainsford
    BBC News, Madrid
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The government has stepped in with the firmest possible measures. For the first time ever, the government has declared a state of alert in Spain, with immediate effect.

    This means air traffic controllers are officially mobilised. If they refuse to work they will be committing the crime of disobedience according to Spain's military penal code.

    These are extremely tough measures being taken by the government, which says the controllers are holding the country hostage and that is unacceptable.

    The controllers can earn 350,000 euros ($470,000; £297,000). There is not a lot of sympathy for them in a country with 20% unemployment.

    The strike came as many Spaniards were preparing to enjoy a long holiday weekend.

    The army was called in to take charge of the country's airspace on Friday, but they do not have the training to direct air traffic.

    Austerity drive

    Announcing the first state of alert since the end of military rule in 1975, Deputy Prime Minister Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba said the air traffic controllers were trying to protect "unacceptable privileges".

    "Our airports are still at a standstill, and according to the Spanish constitution, the government is imposing a state of alert," Mr Rubalcaba said.

    "The immediate effect is that the controllers are are now under orders to go back to work and can be charged with a crime under the military penal code if they refuse. The state of alert will initially last for 15 days."

    Our correspondent says the controllers were facing a charge of disobedience, but it is not clear what sentence any conviction would carry.

    But the threat of prosecution appeared to have been enough to persuade the controllers to return to work, our correspondent adds.

    By late afternoon, officials said 283 of 296 controllers had turned up for their shifts, with just 13 absent.

    National carrier Iberia, which had previously cancelled all of Saturday's flights, said it hoped to start long-haul flights mainly to Latin America overnight.

    Flights to and from places including the Canary Islands and Majorca were quick to resume after the strike came to a halt.


    The controllers' unsanctioned action began Friday afternoon in Madrid, with staff calling in sick.

    It spread across the nation, forcing travellers to find last-minute hotel rooms or sleep on airport floors. Some passengers were taken by coach to their destinations.

    The controllers were already involved in a dispute about their working hours, but were further angered by austerity measures passed by the government on Friday as Spain tries to cut its budget deficit.

    "We have reached our limit mentally with the new decree approved this morning obliging us to work more hours," said Jorge Ontiveros, a spokesman for the Syndicate Union of Air Controllers.

    "We took the decision individually, which then spread to other colleagues who stopped work because they cannot carry on like this. In this situation we cannot control planes."
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    How can you get soldiers to replace 'striking' students? I'm guessing they'd find cabin crew-ing a bit demeaning too, but could probably drive the trains. Those jobs aren't that specialised either, so it's not as if the workers can't just quit if overly threatened.
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    How can you get soldiers to replace 'striking' students? I'm guessing they'd find cabin crew-ing a bit demeaning too, but could probably drive the trains. Those jobs aren't that specialised either, so it's not as if the workers can't just quit if overly threatened.
    ha ha, actually that would be quite fun to see the military replace striking students at uni, maybe we then wouldn't have many of the pointless wars

    Think the point is more that the government takes action, if not to the advantage of the striking people (ie I am certanily supporting the students in their endevours) then at least they do something to resolve the situation quickly and move on

    here in the UK things just cook on and nothing happens, neither for the striking people nor for the negatively affected public
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    I'm sure the strikers will find more creative ways to strike.
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    (Original post by JohnDoldon)
    While we in London are now starting to have bi-monthly tube strikes, announced cabin crew strikes and weekly student strikes and at the end only innocent citizens are negatively affected, the government doesn't do anything. It doesn't care what the people strike about and it cares equally little about the inconvenience and suffering normal people have to go through.

    Spain on the other hand takes matters in hand, sends in the army to replace the striking air traffic controllers and calls a state of alert in order to be able to charge striking traffic controllers and all that within a couple of hours.

    I think the UK government should fly to Spain and take a lesson in strike management!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From the bbc webpage:

    Striking Spain air traffic controllers return to work


    Most of Spain's air traffic controllers have returned to work and airspace has reopened, after a walkout grounded flights and stranded thousands.

    The government had imposed emergency measures not seen since military rule ended in 1975, threatening to prosecute workers who refused to end the strike.

    Officials said 250,000 people had been affected by the walkout, amid a long-running dispute about working hours.

    Ministers warned that disruption could continue for up to 48 hours.

    Works minister Jose Blanco said the situation was improving, and all Spanish airspace had now reopened.

    But he added: "Normality will take some time, between 24 and 48 hours, if the controllers return to work as they must."

    Airport authority AENA said some flights had already begun to leave.

    But most airlines have already cancelled the majority of their flights in and out of the country until Sunday morning.

    The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Madrid says there is a long backlog of flights, and crowds of frustrated passengers still do not know how or when they will get home.

    Continue reading the main story
    Analysis

    Sarah Rainsford
    BBC News, Madrid
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The government has stepped in with the firmest possible measures. For the first time ever, the government has declared a state of alert in Spain, with immediate effect.

    This means air traffic controllers are officially mobilised. If they refuse to work they will be committing the crime of disobedience according to Spain's military penal code.

    These are extremely tough measures being taken by the government, which says the controllers are holding the country hostage and that is unacceptable.

    The controllers can earn 350,000 euros ($470,000; £297,000). There is not a lot of sympathy for them in a country with 20% unemployment.

    The strike came as many Spaniards were preparing to enjoy a long holiday weekend.

    The army was called in to take charge of the country's airspace on Friday, but they do not have the training to direct air traffic.

    Austerity drive

    Announcing the first state of alert since the end of military rule in 1975, Deputy Prime Minister Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba said the air traffic controllers were trying to protect "unacceptable privileges".

    "Our airports are still at a standstill, and according to the Spanish constitution, the government is imposing a state of alert," Mr Rubalcaba said.

    "The immediate effect is that the controllers are are now under orders to go back to work and can be charged with a crime under the military penal code if they refuse. The state of alert will initially last for 15 days."

    Our correspondent says the controllers were facing a charge of disobedience, but it is not clear what sentence any conviction would carry.

    But the threat of prosecution appeared to have been enough to persuade the controllers to return to work, our correspondent adds.

    By late afternoon, officials said 283 of 296 controllers had turned up for their shifts, with just 13 absent.

    National carrier Iberia, which had previously cancelled all of Saturday's flights, said it hoped to start long-haul flights mainly to Latin America overnight.

    Flights to and from places including the Canary Islands and Majorca were quick to resume after the strike came to a halt.


    The controllers' unsanctioned action began Friday afternoon in Madrid, with staff calling in sick.

    It spread across the nation, forcing travellers to find last-minute hotel rooms or sleep on airport floors. Some passengers were taken by coach to their destinations.

    The controllers were already involved in a dispute about their working hours, but were further angered by austerity measures passed by the government on Friday as Spain tries to cut its budget deficit.

    "We have reached our limit mentally with the new decree approved this morning obliging us to work more hours," said Jorge Ontiveros, a spokesman for the Syndicate Union of Air Controllers.

    "We took the decision individually, which then spread to other colleagues who stopped work because they cannot carry on like this. In this situation we cannot control planes."

    I've not read the thread (it's a little long for me right now) however there are a few issues to deal with here:
    The tube strikes are very localised and about very different issues than the student strikes. I don't think it's a good idea to talk about the two as if they're similar. And their effects are related in different ways, obviously the tube strikes are stopping the tube from working, which has an effect on citizens that aren't related to the government or Transport for London. That is how a strike works.
    The student 'strikes' are more similar to demonstrations. Students aren't paid to do anything, they don't really have an obligation to the government to do anything in that regard, the student loans and grants being very separate from things like attendance of a course.

    They're of course an issue of national policy, and don't have issues like the public sector taking in private sector corporations who fail to provide.
    And Bob Crow appears to be a fairly illogical guy.

    One major part of the problem with the tube strikes are the unions counting 'potential jobs' as jobs. There's been a lot of talk about losing jobs, but the vast majority of jobs are simply being changed. So that less people are working in the stations, whilst still working for TFL.

    The reasons why the tube strikes are proving ineffective seem fairly detached from the reasons why the student demonstrations are proving ineffective.
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    Isn't Spain's Prime Minister supposed to be a socialist? :curious:
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    I've not read the thread (it's a little long for me right now) however there are a few issues to deal with here:
    The tube strikes are very localised and about very different issues than the student strikes. I don't think it's a good idea to talk about the two as if they're similar. And their effects are related in different ways, obviously the tube strikes are stopping the tube from working, which has an effect on citizens that aren't related to the government or Transport for London. That is how a strike works.
    The student 'strikes' are more similar to demonstrations. Students aren't paid to do anything, they don't really have an obligation to the government to do anything in that regard, the student loans and grants being very separate from things like attendance of a course.

    They're of course an issue of national policy, and don't have issues like the public sector taking in private sector corporations who fail to provide.
    And Bob Crow appears to be a fairly illogical guy.

    One major part of the problem with the tube strikes are the unions counting 'potential jobs' as jobs. There's been a lot of talk about losing jobs, but the vast majority of jobs are simply being changed. So that less people are working in the stations, whilst still working for TFL.

    The reasons why the tube strikes are proving ineffective seem fairly detached from the reasons why the student demonstrations are proving ineffective.
    Agree with you the two are complete different animals, but what I am trying to say here is taking about 1,000 steps back, totally ignoring what people are striking about and just saying:

    A group of people is taking an action to achieve a certain goal, that action has negative impacts on other people that are neither the cause of the problem the people are striking about nor can they do something about it.

    The only one who can do something about it is the government. Either they can agree to what the striking people want or they can, as in the Spain, just cut through the whole thing and rip it apart.

    Now my question is, what's the better approach: the british unresponsivness (either ways) or the spanish "let's have the military sort it out"/ hardcore approach
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    (Original post by JohnDoldon)
    Agree with you the two are complete different animals, but what I am trying to say here is taking about 1,000 steps back, totally ignoring what people are striking about and just saying:

    A group of people is taking an action to achieve a certain goal, that action has negative impacts on other people that are neither the cause of the problem the people are striking about nor can they do something about it.

    The only one who can do something about it is the government. Either they can agree to what the striking people want or they can, as in the Spain, just cut through the whole thing and rip it apart.

    Now my question is, what's the better approach: the british unresponsivness (either ways) or the spanish "let's have the military sort it out"/ hardcore approach
    Actually, it's less to do with the government and more about the unions and TFL reaching an agreement with regards to the tube strikes.
    And they do effect TFL, they've had to bring in staff from the offices into the stations on days when they've been striking.
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    Well, I, a foreigner living in Spain, find it very interesting current Spanish government...
    As I'm about to live here and don't really care about Spanish politics, quite fun to see government doing silly things. Oh, the best part is the reaction of the civilians. They don't really seem to care about it
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Actually, it's less to do with the government and more about the unions and TFL reaching an agreement with regards to the tube strikes.
    And they do effect TFL, they've had to bring in staff from the offices into the stations on days when they've been striking.

    Well if the whole back-bone of a city's transportation system breaks down it does become a government issue, ie the government should take action.

    But obviously Boris couldn't hope for any better, his bike rentals sell record volumes on strike days
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    (Original post by JohnDoldon)
    Well if the whole back-bone of a city's transportation system breaks down it does become a government issue, ie the government should take action.

    But obviously Boris couldn't hope for any better, his bike rentals sell record volumes on strike days
    Think of it like this (I'm only covering relevant things, and I know that it is more complex than this):

    Government: makes policy to implemented nation wide.
    Hires organisations or people to run (on their behalf) and work any publicised systems, such as the NHS.

    Organisation:
    Has a set budget.
    Decides on specific policy (in line with that of general government policy) And any other policies the government specifically impose on general public organisations.
    Deals with unions, workers, complains, members of public using the service.

    The strikes are directed to put pressure not on the government, but on TFL. They're the ones who decide what happens to the tube workers. The strikes aren't aimed, and nor should they be, at the government. They're aimed at the relevant organisation, which is TFL. All of the relevant policies are made by TFL, and not the government.

    The student demonstrations are aimed at the government, as they're in the process of making cuts, and saying how the student loan system will work. There is no organisation that is between the students and the governments, as they are in this case the policy makers.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Think of it like this (I'm only covering relevant things, and I know that it is more complex than this):

    Government: makes policy to implemented nation wide.
    Hires organisations or people to run (on their behalf) and work any publicised systems, such as the NHS.

    Organisation:
    Has a set budget.
    Decides on specific policy (in line with that of general government policy) And any other policies the government specifically impose on general public organisations.
    Deals with unions, workers, complains, members of public using the service.

    The strikes are directed to put pressure not on the government, but on TFL. They're the ones who decide what happens to the tube workers. The strikes aren't aimed, and nor should they be, at the government. They're aimed at the relevant organisation, which is TFL. All of the relevant policies are made by TFL, and not the government.

    The student demonstrations are aimed at the government, as they're in the process of making cuts, and saying how the student loan system will work. There is no organisation that is between the students and the governments, as they are in this case the policy makers.
    Well this is like saying (exaggerated) that if I throw a bomb at my company because i think I get paid too little, kill innocent people, the government shouldn't get involved

    One of the gov main responsibilities is "law and order", if people in essential service like the transportation back-bone of a metropolis just do "what they want" and this leads to chaos, it's the governments responsiblity

    Again the question is about action and inactivity of the gov, I mean what are we paying those guys for, if they don't resolve issues that negatively affect me and many many other tax paying citizen??
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    (Original post by JohnDoldon)
    Well this is like saying (exaggerated) that if I throw a bomb at my company because i think I get paid too little, kill innocent people, the government shouldn't get involved

    One of the gov main responsibilities is "law and order", if people in essential service like the transportation back-bone of a metropolis just do "what they want" and this leads to chaos, it's the governments responsiblity

    Again the question is about action and inactivity of the gov, I mean what are we paying those guys for, if they don't resolve issues that negatively affect me and many many other tax paying citizen??
    They don't get paid if they strike do they?

    And they can't strike too many days close together, they also have to give a fair amount of warning before they strike. Both of which they're doing.

    Lastly they're not looking to get into a debate with the houses of parliament, although they might through general protests about cuts, but on their specific strikes, they're looking at trying to make TFL agree with them.
    Personally I think they should completely concede, TFL seem to be being very fair.
 
 
 
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