Newly Released Information Regarding RAF Officer, WSOp and NCO ATC Recruitment
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Yeah I was told by a Sgt i know in recruitment that it's around 70% that are sent back, it is very common and just part of the test I imagine. I know alot of ex-rankers that have said they were sent back, you have to be something very special to get it first time round. I worked with an SAC in my section who got Pilot first time a year ago, but he failed on academics in the third term and got sent back to Waddington as an SAC again.
Yes it is no where near as common for serving airmen to go for Pilot as it is for DE. Obviously there are pros and cons, i.e. a serving airman will have military experience and a DE with have the more recent academic experience. Time served is usually used in lue of qualifications as well, but I have the required grades anyway.
I know of a few Pilots that are ex-rankers, one of which got sent back six months. He gave me the advice of if you are sent back for an amount of time, to just go back and try it again as its all part of the test and to not be disheartened.
Craglyboy, I also do not agree with not changing career paths once in - but only for commissioned personnel. I believe it is frowned upon for officers to re-branch and is very rare as far as I know. As for airmen, it is more common to re-trade/go for commission. When I joined the RAF I wasn't ready for commission in the slightest, so I joined as an airman to gain experience and build myself up for it.
But yeah I feel more confident this time round, have done alot of things this year to 'polish' my leadership up and this time round I know what to expect.
Yes it is no where near as common for serving airmen to go for Pilot as it is for DE. Obviously there are pros and cons, i.e. a serving airman will have military experience and a DE with have the more recent academic experience. Time served is usually used in lue of qualifications as well, but I have the required grades anyway.
I know of a few Pilots that are ex-rankers, one of which got sent back six months. He gave me the advice of if you are sent back for an amount of time, to just go back and try it again as its all part of the test and to not be disheartened.
Craglyboy, I also do not agree with not changing career paths once in - but only for commissioned personnel. I believe it is frowned upon for officers to re-branch and is very rare as far as I know. As for airmen, it is more common to re-trade/go for commission. When I joined the RAF I wasn't ready for commission in the slightest, so I joined as an airman to gain experience and build myself up for it.
But yeah I feel more confident this time round, have done alot of things this year to 'polish' my leadership up and this time round I know what to expect.
(edited 13 years ago)
Agreed Ben, what I am saying thugh is it is not a good idea to go in as an airman when you want to go in at officer level on the premise you can work your way up. Of course some people do but it can often be a false premise which people fall into when joining.
From your own experience would you say its an easy thing to do?
From your own experience would you say its an easy thing to do?
For me you shouldn’t join up assuming that you will be able to change jobs or be successful with a later application for a commission.
Changing your trade/branch has never been easy. I’ve been out of the training world for a while, but the last I heard was that in the current climate branch changes are extremely difficult to come by. Even reselection to another branch by OASC after a phase2 training withdrawal is by no means a certainty.
In terms of gaining a commission from the ranks, I do think that this is an area where the RAF are missing out on some good potential. I’ve often worked with Junior Airmen who I felt would be better suited with a commission than some of the Officers I was training, but I’m not in OASC. Commissioning from the ranks is correctly a difficult process, and while it can be done, don’t join assuming it’s going to happen.
Good luck to you all!
Changing your trade/branch has never been easy. I’ve been out of the training world for a while, but the last I heard was that in the current climate branch changes are extremely difficult to come by. Even reselection to another branch by OASC after a phase2 training withdrawal is by no means a certainty.
In terms of gaining a commission from the ranks, I do think that this is an area where the RAF are missing out on some good potential. I’ve often worked with Junior Airmen who I felt would be better suited with a commission than some of the Officers I was training, but I’m not in OASC. Commissioning from the ranks is correctly a difficult process, and while it can be done, don’t join assuming it’s going to happen.
Good luck to you all!
Thing is though, I joined the RAF knowing that becoming an officer is something I always wanted to do. I wanted to join up as an officer from the outset but was nowhere near ready. I literally walked into the AFCO in civvies, sat down with the sgt and said 'I want to be a Pilot'. Of course naturally I was sent away overnight to reconsider my options!
I wasnt ready when I joined and I aspired to become one, so i joined up... built up my character through Halton, worked with Officers and then thought - yes I would like to do that and continued to work my way up. I feel I have come a long way since that college student who went into the AFCO in civvies!
Most bases have OASC Preperation clubs for serving members which I have been attending, I know of an LAC who straight out of trade training went straight for commission and I believe she actually got it! Must of been pretty special. I know what you are saying though, but as you say of course some people do it
Are you currently serving? Or hoping to join?
EDIT (Seen Pending's post):
I heard the same, that branch changes are extremely rare and are especially frowned upon for commissioned ranks.
I should clarify though: I didnt really join assuming it would happen, I joined to get into the RAF after realising that no- I wasnt at all ready for commission, but I wanted to be.
I wanted to build myself up to a point where I would be ready and where I could apply myself, it was something I had always aspired to since joining. And obviously the RAF has alot of opportunities for building character/building on leadership.etc which I have used to build myself further. And of course naturally joining from the ranks also gives you the added benefit of having military experience already i guess.
I wasnt ready when I joined and I aspired to become one, so i joined up... built up my character through Halton, worked with Officers and then thought - yes I would like to do that and continued to work my way up. I feel I have come a long way since that college student who went into the AFCO in civvies!
Most bases have OASC Preperation clubs for serving members which I have been attending, I know of an LAC who straight out of trade training went straight for commission and I believe she actually got it! Must of been pretty special. I know what you are saying though, but as you say of course some people do it
Are you currently serving? Or hoping to join?
EDIT (Seen Pending's post):
I heard the same, that branch changes are extremely rare and are especially frowned upon for commissioned ranks.
I should clarify though: I didnt really join assuming it would happen, I joined to get into the RAF after realising that no- I wasnt at all ready for commission, but I wanted to be.
I wanted to build myself up to a point where I would be ready and where I could apply myself, it was something I had always aspired to since joining. And obviously the RAF has alot of opportunities for building character/building on leadership.etc which I have used to build myself further. And of course naturally joining from the ranks also gives you the added benefit of having military experience already i guess
.(edited 13 years ago)
If being an Airman was seen as the best way of developing someone's Officer potential, everyone would do it. It isn't. It may work for a tiny number of people but they are the exceptions and not the rule. In the first couple of years serving, most Airmen/women won't do much at all that would advance their suitability for Cranwell.
This is of course different once someone reaches SNCO rank and looks at a commission. Then, they have years more experience, with commensurate management and leadership.
One very real problem with commissioning from the ranks is it increases the overall 'age' of a Branch and doesn't give a full career potential to the very top. You need the right balance of 18-21 year old joiners to ensure you have the right spread and those who can, in theory, make it to Air Commodore and beyond. If you don't, you get a Branch full of 40 year old's who can't get beyond Wg Cdr.
This is of course different once someone reaches SNCO rank and looks at a commission. Then, they have years more experience, with commensurate management and leadership.
One very real problem with commissioning from the ranks is it increases the overall 'age' of a Branch and doesn't give a full career potential to the very top. You need the right balance of 18-21 year old joiners to ensure you have the right spread and those who can, in theory, make it to Air Commodore and beyond. If you don't, you get a Branch full of 40 year old's who can't get beyond Wg Cdr.
'It may work for a tiny number of people but they are the exceptions and not the rule.'
I agree entirely, not everyone will be suitable at all. But of course you are not just suitable to go for commission from just being an airman but I have done alot more than just be in my job to build myself up for commission, I have done extra things - extra courses, extra secondary duties that involve leadership, extra activites, arranged extra events and so on...etc
You are right in saying that in the first couple of years serving MOST airmen/women wont do much. But again, I have done extra things to improve myself. The role I am currently in has little opportunity for leadership, but it is the extra things I have done that have proved and developed my leadership potential.
I am awaiting aptitude test dates after passing the filter interview for a Uni Bursary.
What will this freeze on pilot employment until at least 2012 mean for people applying for a Bursary? I've even heard of talk of the Uni Bursary not being awarded to people applying for Pilot. Anyone know more?
What will this freeze on pilot employment until at least 2012 mean for people applying for a Bursary? I've even heard of talk of the Uni Bursary not being awarded to people applying for Pilot. Anyone know more?
Original post by Ben5560
That if successful you wont start IOT until at least July 2012, not sure if that differs for bursary people or not or what will happen...
Bursars are already in the system. While they have not yet started IOT, their presence has been accounted for and factored in. Those bursars who are due to graduate in July next year won't mess up the numbers too much, IOT takes a bare minimum of 3 months, more like 4/4.5 if the new timetable kicks in soon, as well as a month or two wait before their course starts. Add in a reasonable hold post-IOT and the few bursars that are out there will join the system at the same time as anyone else who makes it.
Drew
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/436692-training-pipeline-clogged.html
You seen this? You seem to have the inside track on current personnel issues - does this ring true?
I read the understandably concerned queries from potential candidates on TSR and all I can picture is a bank of Manning Sqn Ldr's, hunched over laptops, pulling their hair out while they run figures through their spreadsheets trying to make RAF 2020 work!
Interesting times ............ just not if you want to join this little club.
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/436692-training-pipeline-clogged.html
You seen this? You seem to have the inside track on current personnel issues - does this ring true?
I read the understandably concerned queries from potential candidates on TSR and all I can picture is a bank of Manning Sqn Ldr's, hunched over laptops, pulling their hair out while they run figures through their spreadsheets trying to make RAF 2020 work!
Interesting times ............ just not if you want to join this little club.
Firstly, and most importantly, I do not pretend to be an expert by any means on what's going on, merely someone who hears things from lots of places. Whether they're true, unbiased and without hyperbole is not my department! Everything said should be taken with a pinch of salt as they do not reflect genuine, confirmed RAF policy.
But, yes, from what I've been hearing, it does sound abuot right. People going through Linton already saw their navy buds get told they're on permanent holds from flying pending redistribution.
Won't happen to everyone, but some will inevitably be unlucky. While it's more likely for the unlucky ones to be at the beginning of the system [less money lost per person] they'd need to lose people from all levels to make the throughput numbers balance.
Really comes down to whether the people are applying to be Pilots, or applying to be RAF Officers who fly. If the latter, then surely you'd be fine with a non-flying post...?
[And, having said all that, the odds of getting a flying seat in the RAF is probably still greater than in the civvy world...]
But, yes, from what I've been hearing, it does sound abuot right. People going through Linton already saw their navy buds get told they're on permanent holds from flying pending redistribution.
Won't happen to everyone, but some will inevitably be unlucky. While it's more likely for the unlucky ones to be at the beginning of the system [less money lost per person] they'd need to lose people from all levels to make the throughput numbers balance.
Really comes down to whether the people are applying to be Pilots, or applying to be RAF Officers who fly. If the latter, then surely you'd be fine with a non-flying post...?
[And, having said all that, the odds of getting a flying seat in the RAF is probably still greater than in the civvy world...]
(edited 13 years ago)
Unfortunately it barely scratches the surface.
RW OCUs only require 30-ish% of the student pilots currently in the RW pipeline. The studes at Shawbs are expecting 2-4 year holds for most and redundencies for some.
Currently, each BFJT course consists of 8 studes with 6 going to Valley, although only 5 went from the last course. No-one knows whether this will last or if it will become 4 from 6, 3 from 5, etc. Maybe they'll bring back BHT super-streaming.
45 is rammed to the gills with both abos and mexos. I've heard that no ab-initio will graduate from there in 2011. Some of those in the pipeline have been holding for 9 months plus, and will continue to wait for the mexo backlog to clear. I understand that those chopped from Shawbs will no longer have a shot at 45, and while choppees from BFJT will get another go at something else, it is now highly unlikely to be 45. Instead they will go to Shawbs, where they will add to the problems there.
Making the whole situation worse is the drawdown of Nimrod, Harrier and Tornado which has resulted in a whole load of experienced crews looking for OCU and crossover slots; even fewer for the studes at Linton/Shawbs/45.
Meanwhile, OASC, IOT and EFT are still pumping more bodies into the mix. And there's no easy solution on the cards. Everyone's hoping that the airlines will come in and clear out the front line to make some space, but if that doesn't happen, the only thing left to do is start chopping left, right and centre. The next EFT streaming has already been put back a month to help things. I really hope that people who have passed the course and earned their spot in the next phase don't suffer the consequences.
People who are complaining that they've been told not to apply or have to wait a while before IOT should be grateful that they're not stuck in the middle of this.
RW OCUs only require 30-ish% of the student pilots currently in the RW pipeline. The studes at Shawbs are expecting 2-4 year holds for most and redundencies for some.
Currently, each BFJT course consists of 8 studes with 6 going to Valley, although only 5 went from the last course. No-one knows whether this will last or if it will become 4 from 6, 3 from 5, etc. Maybe they'll bring back BHT super-streaming.
45 is rammed to the gills with both abos and mexos. I've heard that no ab-initio will graduate from there in 2011. Some of those in the pipeline have been holding for 9 months plus, and will continue to wait for the mexo backlog to clear. I understand that those chopped from Shawbs will no longer have a shot at 45, and while choppees from BFJT will get another go at something else, it is now highly unlikely to be 45. Instead they will go to Shawbs, where they will add to the problems there.
Making the whole situation worse is the drawdown of Nimrod, Harrier and Tornado which has resulted in a whole load of experienced crews looking for OCU and crossover slots; even fewer for the studes at Linton/Shawbs/45.
Meanwhile, OASC, IOT and EFT are still pumping more bodies into the mix. And there's no easy solution on the cards. Everyone's hoping that the airlines will come in and clear out the front line to make some space, but if that doesn't happen, the only thing left to do is start chopping left, right and centre. The next EFT streaming has already been put back a month to help things. I really hope that people who have passed the course and earned their spot in the next phase don't suffer the consequences.
People who are complaining that they've been told not to apply or have to wait a while before IOT should be grateful that they're not stuck in the middle of this.
Drewski - the RN BFJT studes are awaiting a streaming board which will allocate the 8 remaining slots for F-18 between those who are on BFJT, 208, 19 and 4. Those who don't get one (or ask for it) will go to Shawbury. Although if they really want to be re-branched, I'm sure their wish will come true.
And although I personally would stay in the RAF if I was told I could no longer fly (which, remember, is no guarantee at present), it's what I joined for and I would be gutted if it was taken away. How many RegtOs or ATCOs would stay if they were told they had to rebranch to something they didn't apply for and that doesn't interest them as much as their old job? I know what you're getting at, and I think it's vital that people remember they're in the RAF no matter what job they do, but what you suggest is a little facetious and blasé at a time when a lot of us are very concerned about our futures.
And although I personally would stay in the RAF if I was told I could no longer fly (which, remember, is no guarantee at present), it's what I joined for and I would be gutted if it was taken away. How many RegtOs or ATCOs would stay if they were told they had to rebranch to something they didn't apply for and that doesn't interest them as much as their old job? I know what you're getting at, and I think it's vital that people remember they're in the RAF no matter what job they do, but what you suggest is a little facetious and blasé at a time when a lot of us are very concerned about our futures.
On yet another happy note:
It was announced today that 512 WSO course will be the last ever ab-initio WSO course. 513 onwards will (hopefully) be rebranched and the WSO branch has shut for good. My sympathies to any trainee navs reading this; I hope things work themselves out for you.
It was announced today that 512 WSO course will be the last ever ab-initio WSO course. 513 onwards will (hopefully) be rebranched and the WSO branch has shut for good. My sympathies to any trainee navs reading this; I hope things work themselves out for you.
Original post by Ninety Eight
On yet another happy note:
It was announced today that 512 WSO course will be the last ever ab-initio WSO course. 513 onwards will (hopefully) be rebranched and the WSO branch has shut for good. My sympathies to any trainee navs reading this; I hope things work themselves out for you.
It was announced today that 512 WSO course will be the last ever ab-initio WSO course. 513 onwards will (hopefully) be rebranched and the WSO branch has shut for good. My sympathies to any trainee navs reading this; I hope things work themselves out for you.
Three of the 516 studes were on my IOT, not happy times for quite a few baby navs. =(
Original post by Mr. Vice
The Nav world has well an truely been tipped on its head. I fear the pilot world will be soon to follow suit.
Not really the same for Pilot as for Nav, now is it?
Original post by Mr. Vice
Pro
Although the branch will remain open unlike WSO I have heard that many pilots could be loosing their job. I would say that is tipping it on its head. I never implied that it would be done in the same way, only that it will be tipped on its head.
Mr. Vice
Although the branch will remain open unlike WSO I have heard that many pilots could be loosing their job. I would say that is tipping it on its head. I never implied that it would be done in the same way, only that it will be tipped on its head.
Mr. Vice
Could is the wrong tense! "Have" is a more appropriate one, as is "will"
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