The Student Room Group

one hell of a question........

How in the world do you answer this question? where do you start?

"The modern hot-air balloon is fuelled by inexpensive propane and constructed of
lightweight nylon fabric. The air in the balloon cavity is heated by a propane burner
located at the top of the passenger cage. The flames from the burner that shoot into
the balloon heat the air in the balloon cavity, raising the air temperature at top of the
balloon from 65oC to over 120oC. The air temperature is maintained at the desired
levels by periodically firing the propane burner. The buoyancy force that pushes the
balloon upward is proportional to the density of the cooler air outsider the balloon and
the volume of the balloon, and can be expressed as Fb = ρcool air gVballoon where g is the
gravitational acceleration. Consider a 20-m-diameter hot-air balloon that, together
with its cage, has a mass of 80 kg when empty. This balloon is hanging still in the air
at a location where the atmospheric pressure and temperature are 90 kPa and 15oC,
respectively, while carrying three 65 kg people. Determine the average temperature of
the air in the balloon. What would your response be if the atmospheric air temperature
were 30oC".
:eek:
er ..... chemistry forum?
Reply 2
charco
er ..... chemistry forum?


This is a physical chemistry question.
This has jack all to do with physical chemistry - it's pure physics! It's about density, buoyancy, pressure and temperature. Just because it mentions the name of a chemical (propane) it does not make it a chemistry question.

Viz:
If three men take 20 minutes to fill a bath full of H2O how long do five men take to fill the same bath? Chemistry?

If a ship full of sodium nitrate (NaNO3) wishes to sail to a destination due west and is capable of speeds of up to 10 knots and there is 5 knot current in a southerly direction what course should the captain set and how long will it take to reach the destination? Chemistry?
koolkuzz
How in the world do you answer this question? where do you start?

"The modern hot-air balloon is fuelled by inexpensive propane and constructed of
lightweight nylon fabric. The air in the balloon cavity is heated by a propane burner
located at the top of the passenger cage. The flames from the burner that shoot into
the balloon heat the air in the balloon cavity, raising the air temperature at top of the
balloon from 65oC to over 120oC. The air temperature is maintained at the desired
levels by periodically firing the propane burner. The buoyancy force that pushes the
balloon upward is proportional to the density of the cooler air outsider the balloon and
the volume of the balloon, and can be expressed as Fb = ρcool air gVballoon where g is the
gravitational acceleration. Consider a 20-m-diameter hot-air balloon that, together
with its cage, has a mass of 80 kg when empty. This balloon is hanging still in the air
at a location where the atmospheric pressure and temperature are 90 kPa and 15oC,
respectively, while carrying three 65 kg people. Determine the average temperature of
the air in the balloon. What would your response be if the atmospheric air temperature
were 30oC".
:eek:


takes a deep breath....

Fb = ρ(cool air).g.V(balloon)

ok, assume that the ballloon is a sphere.
It's diameter is 20m therefore its volume 4/3pi.r^3 = 4189 m^3

when hovering, force due to gravity on the balloon = mass x g = ρ(cool air).g.V(balloon)
g cancels out

mass = ρ(cool air).V(balloon)

ρ(cool air) = [80 + (3 x 65)]/4189 = 0.065648 kg/m^3
----------------------------------------------------------------------

When the atmospheric pressure = 90kPa and T = 288k the mass of air displaced = the difference in
mass of air inside and outside the balloon.

Mass displaced = (volume x density)outside - (volume x density)inside
but volume(inside) = volume(outside)

mass displaced/volume = density(outside - inside)

275/4189 = density(outside) - density(inside)
0.071999 = density(outside) - density(inside)

therefore density(inside) = density(outside) - 0.071999

so lets work out the density outside from the conditions given...

conditions outside PV=RT (for 1 mole)
molar volume = RT/P = 26.6048 dm^3

conditions inside balloon PV=RT (for 1 mole)

average RMM of air = (28 x 0.8) + (32 x 0.2) = 28.8
so 1 mole of air = 28.8g = 0.0288kg
volume occupied by 1 mole = 26.6048dm^3 = 0.026604 m^3

density(outside) = mass/volume = 0.0288/0.026604 = 1.0825 kg/m^3

density(inside) = density(outside) - 0.071999

density(inside) = 1.0825 - 0.0720 = 1.01054

so we've got the inside density, we know the volume so we can work out the mass of air

density = mass/volume so mass = density x volume = 1.01054 x 4189 = 4233.1725kg

expressed in grams = 4233172.5g
expressed in moles = 146985.15 moles

pV = nRT

pressure must be the same as outside = 90kPa
volume is the volume of the balloon = 4189m^3 = 4189000dm^3
n= 146985.15 moles
R = 8.314

therefore the average inside air temperature = PV/nR = 308.5K = 35.5ºC
Reply 5
lol, very impressive charco... this is physics not chem!
why, thank you kind sir!

and you're right - that's what I thought, it's more physics than anything else...
Reply 7
charco
why, thank you kind sir!

and you're right - that's what I thought, it's more physics than anything else...



Thanks a million! for the answer, you have saved my life! :smile:
Reply 8
charco
takes a deep breath....

Fb = ρ(cool air).g.V(balloon)

ok, assume that the ballloon is a sphere.
It's diameter is 20m therefore its volume 4/3pi.r^3 = 4189 m^3

when hovering, force due to gravity on the balloon = mass x g = ρ(cool air).g.V(balloon)
g cancels out

mass = ρ(cool air).V(balloon)

ρ(cool air) = [80 + (3 x 65)]/4189 = 0.065648 kg/m^3
----------------------------------------------------------------------

When the atmospheric pressure = 90kPa and T = 288k the mass of air displaced = the difference in
mass of air inside and outside the balloon.

Mass displaced = (volume x density)outside - (volume x density)inside
but volume(inside) = volume(outside)

mass displaced/volume = density(outside - inside)

275/4189 = density(outside) - density(inside)
0.071999 = density(outside) - density(inside)

therefore density(inside) = density(outside) - 0.071999

so lets work out the density outside from the conditions given...

conditions outside PV=RT (for 1 mole)
molar volume = RT/P = 26.6048 dm^3

conditions inside balloon PV=RT (for 1 mole)

average RMM of air = (28 x 0.8) + (32 x 0.2) = 28.8
so 1 mole of air = 28.8g = 0.0288kg
volume occupied by 1 mole = 26.6048dm^3 = 0.026604 m^3

density(outside) = mass/volume = 0.0288/0.026604 = 1.0825 kg/m^3

density(inside) = density(outside) - 0.071999

density(inside) = 1.0825 - 0.0720 = 1.01054

so we've got the inside density, we know the volume so we can work out the mass of air

density = mass/volume so mass = density x volume = 1.01054 x 4189 = 4233.1725kg

expressed in grams = 4233172.5g
expressed in moles = 146985.15 moles

pV = nRT

pressure must be the same as outside = 90kPa
volume is the volume of the balloon = 4189m^3 = 4189000dm^3
n= 146985.15 moles
R = 8.314

therefore the average inside air temperature = PV/nR = 308.5K = 35.5ºC


I am trying to understand your solution, just not sure how you got a value of 275 for the mass displaced?
Also I forgot that the question also says
"Air is an ideal gas and the gas constant of air is R = 0.287"

You used a value of r = 8.31, so why does the question say that ideal gas constant for air = 0.287????
275 is the total mass of the balloon (80kg) and three 65kg people (195kg)
80 + 195 = 275kg

The universal gas constant only depends on the units of the pressure and volume used. If the units of pressure are kPa and the volume is in litres then the gas constant is 8.314.
if the units of pressure are Pa and the volume is in metres cubed then the value of R is the same - 8.314
If the units of pressure are atmospheres and the volume litres then R is 0.0821.
Basically apply PV = nRT and rearrange to get R = PV/nT where T is 273K and n=1, V = 22.41 (litres) or 0.02241 m^3 (or if you want it in any other unit of volume you have to make the appropriate correction)

applying your value for R and rearranging the equation gives
P= nRT/V
P = (1 x 0.287 x 273)/0.02241
P = 3496!
this is a number I have never seen before in terms of atmospheric pressure.

All of the other values in your question are in SI units and so I can only suspect that the value of R given is a misprint/typo/error.

Don't take my word for it check out this link

Universal gas constant
Don't take my word for it check out this link

Universal gas constant
Reply 11
in your answer you write:

"275/4189 = density(outside) - density(inside)
0.071999 = density(outside) - density(inside)"

but 275/4189 = 0.06565 and NOT 0.071999
I am not sure if you done this differently but the answer change from 35.5degrees to 33.6



And you are right about the universal gas constant because it says "ideal gas constant of air = 0.287 kPa.m(cubed)/kg-1.K-1"
Would that still give me the same value of 8.314???
Revenged
lol, very impressive charco... this is physics not chem!


It's both.

Just number crunching really, such a shame, I was expect a properly hard question...
koolkuzz
in your answer you write:

"275/4189 = density(outside) - density(inside)
0.071999 = density(outside) - density(inside)"

but 275/4189 = 0.06565 and NOT 0.071999
I am not sure if you done this differently but the answer change from 35.5degrees to 33.6


yeah, looks like I messed up on the calculator!
--------------
koolkuzz

And you are right about the universal gas constant because it says "ideal gas constant of air = 0.287 kPa.m(cubed)/kg-1.K-1"
Would that still give me the same value of 8.314???


seems like they have taken the average relative mass of air as 28.97 and expressed the gas constant in terms of kg and not moles

PV=nRT

PV = mass x RT/RMM
therefore R = (PV x RMM) /(mass x RT)

so for a 1 kg mass of air this gives R = 0.287

However, this is hardly a Universal Gas Constant as it can only be used for air!