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Education is now a product not a service Watch

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    What they have done is change higher education from a service to a product. In the old days the government paid a set amount to the universities, the universities then educated as many students as it could afford to do so (which had to be regulated by high grade requirements). The student paid nothing because the government footed the bill, in the knowledge that the student would then go on to get a better job and therefore pay more income tax than the average man in order to fund the next generation of students.

    Then in the 90s they realised that instead of offering a service which cost the government money, it would be possible to actually sell a product which would make the government money! They decided to remove government funding of universities and make the students foot the bill instead. Obviously students wouldn't be able to afford to do that so they decided to give the students loans with high interest that they would spend the rest of their working lives paying off.

    They encouraged more and more students to go to university, promising increased job prospects, emphasising that there was 'nothing to pay upfront!', essentially encouraging students to buy a product on credit. And it worked, with twice the amount of students in higher education combined with the recession, they had the perfect excuse to virtually cut all higher education investment, offering absolutely nothing to the graduate.... except interest payments lasting 30 years on top of the higher income tax which comes with earning more.
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    Okay.
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    I fully agree with you; and it's a point many people don't seem to realise. Education is a public service akin to fire brigades, police, hospitals, etc.

    The same argument that is used for tuition fees could also be used - without any change - to putting high fees for calling the fire brigade.

    Your house is burning, you call the fire brigade, they sort it out, you benefit.
    You want to become a doctor, you go to university, they teach you, you and the whole society benefit.
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    (Original post by HJV)
    I fully agree with you; and it's a point many people don't seem to realise. Education is a public service akin to fire brigades, police, hospitals, etc.

    The same argument that is used for tuition fees could also be used - without any change - to putting high fees for calling the fire brigade.

    Your house is burning, you call the fire brigade, they sort it out, you benefit.
    You want to become a doctor, you go to university, they teach you, you and the whole society benefit.
    Oh good god. Please don't tell me you think not getting educated to a certain standard is a similar problem to a house on fire.
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    (Original post by HJV)
    I fully agree with you; and it's a point many people don't seem to realise. Education is a public service akin to fire brigades, police, hospitals, etc.

    The same argument that is used for tuition fees could also be used - without any change - to putting high fees for calling the fire brigade.

    Your house is burning, you call the fire brigade, they sort it out, you benefit.
    You want to become a doctor, you go to university, they teach you, you and the whole society benefit.
    'Education' is not exclusively university education though, it includes primary and secondary education that EVERYONE gets for free

    It's perfectly possible to leave school at 18 (as will be law soon) and have a successful life, the many millionaires who left school at 16 would testify to this
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    You evidently do not understand the difference between the term 'product' and the term 'service'. :facepalm:
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    (Original post by thegenius31416)
    You evidently do not understand the difference between the term 'product' and the term 'service'. :facepalm:
    I think it's an appropriate choice of words to get my point accross
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    (Original post by Prince Rupert)
    'Education' is not exclusively university education though, it includes primary and secondary education that EVERYONE gets for free

    It's perfectly possible to leave school at 18 (as will be law soon) and have a successful life, the many millionaires who left school at 16 would testify to this
    Exactly what he said.
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    There's a counter-argument that a society where everybody has degrees has its own problems, e.g. in getting an experienced plumber, or an experienced bricklayer.
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    Agreed
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    (Original post by CitizensUnited)
    There's a counter-argument that a society where everybody has degrees has its own problems, e.g. in getting an experienced plumber, or an experienced bricklayer.
    That's not the argument here - university education can still be limited in places, but should essentially be a public service like other forms of education.

    (Original post by Jeppasloth)
    Oh good god. Please don't tell me you think not getting educated to a certain standard is a similar problem to a house on fire.
    Of course not, but similar arguments to this debate could also be applied to fees for firefighting services. People say tuition fees do not prevent poor people from going to university. Sure, firefighting fees would not prevent poor people from having their home extinguished either (if a similar loan system was in place).

    (Original post by Prince Rupert)
    'Education' is not exclusively university education though, it includes primary and secondary education that EVERYONE gets for free

    It's perfectly possible to leave school at 18 (as will be law soon) and have a successful life, the many millionaires who left school at 16 would testify to this
    Well quite obviously a university degree isn't an absolute necessity to become a millionaire (if that's one's goal in life), but you can't deny that there is a correlation between wealth and level of education.

    The job of the government is to enable people to live better lives, and provision of university education is one such way.
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    (Original post by HJV)
    I fully agree with you; and it's a point many people don't seem to realise. Education is a public service akin to fire brigades, police, hospitals, etc.

    The same argument that is used for tuition fees could also be used - without any change - to putting high fees for calling the fire brigade.

    Your house is burning, you call the fire brigade, they sort it out, you benefit.
    You want to become a doctor, you go to university, they teach you, you and the whole society benefit.
    Agree to a point. Ok. You want to become a doctor, you go to university, they teach you, you and the whole society benefit.

    What about, however: You go to university, you do a degree in Media Studies or Surfboard Management or something like that, who benefits then??
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    If you pay for something you have a right to want the best. As many universitys and realising student expectations have shot through the roof. This new system could mean that uni's will provide much better value for money because they have to
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    You are speaking about the government like it is a blackhole. Not really true. The counterpart of students paying more in fees is that the direct state subsidy is less and people in general pay less in tax. You say "income tax AND interest", but the income tax component should be less with fees (assuming that the government doesn't instead use that cash to boost services or whatever)
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    Companies that advertise surfboards?

    In all serious though, the person that benefits is the student clearly. But if they are benefiting from a service which is available to everyone, then where's the injustice?

    The taxes of perfectly healthy people pay for the operations of smokers and obese people, yet it's generally accepted that free health care should be available for all.

    The choice is private or public, that's what this tuition fees argument is really about. If you ask me, and this is just my personal opinion, that in a progressive modern society, we ought to undertake the moral obligation to provide our children with free healthcare, education, emergency services and subsidised transport.
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    (Original post by Medic-11)
    Agree to a point. Ok. You want to become a doctor, you go to university, they teach you, you and the whole society benefit.

    What about, however: You go to university, you do a degree in Media Studies or Surfboard Management or something like that, who benefits then??
    Exactly, it's disgraceful.
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    (Original post by garethDT)
    Companies that advertise surfboards?

    In all serious though, the person that benefits is the student clearly. But if they are benefiting from a service which is available to everyone, then where's the injustice?

    The taxes of perfectly healthy people pay for the operations of smokers and obese people, yet it's generally accepted that free health care should be available for all.

    The choice is private or public, that's what this tuition fees argument is really about. If you ask me, and this is just my personal opinion, that in a progressive modern society, we ought to undertake the moral obligation to provide our children with free healthcare, education, emergency services and subsidised transport.
    Let us not forget, however, how much money smokers contribute to the government via tax on cigarettes. Likewise people who eat a lot and consume a lot of alcohol...

    I have discussed this with my parents on numerous occasions and they have always maintained that they wouldn't mind their taxes being used to help to train doctors, nurses, teachers, etc, but NOT to put people who aren't academic enough for university in the first place through a Mickey-Mouse-degree...
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    (Original post by Medic-11)
    Let us not forget, however, how much money smokers contribute to the government via tax on cigarettes. Likewise people who eat a lot and consume a lot of alcohol...

    I have discussed this with my parents on numerous occasions and they have always maintained that they wouldn't mind their taxes being used to help to train doctors, nurses, teachers, etc, but NOT to put people who aren't academic enough for university in the first place through a Mickey-Mouse-degree...
    Very important point you've raised there in that last sentence, and if you refer to my original post you will see that the notion of academically challenged people going to university to do mickey mouse courses is a by-product of privatisation. It's seen as a relatively new problem which only sprang up when universities started to charge fees and it became in the universities' and government's interest to get more people into higher education.
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    (Original post by garethDT)
    Very important point you've raised there in that last sentence, and if you refer to my original post you will see that the notion of academically challenged people going to university to do mickey mouse courses is a by-product of privatisation. It's seen as a relatively new problem which only sprang up when universities started to charge fees and it became in the universities' and government's interest to get more people into higher education.
    I think the point is that the government cannot afford to pay all fees. Furthermore, it would be unfair to deny someone equal funding because of their choice of course... It's a vicious circle really...
 
 
 
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