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I'm starting to turn against the EU. Watch

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    Hi all

    For most of my (politically aware) life I've been a staunch supporter of the EU, but as of late I've started to question how necessary it really is, and whether a "simple" trade agreement would be the answer economically.

    I'd like to see the coherent arguments from both perspectives, so I can take a step closer to working out my view on it. Thanks to all those who post
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    Any Union that takes away our own Government's power and freedom to exercise policies in the national interest is a bad thing (Prisoners getting the vote etc). Uncontrollable immigration too. An unreliable euro.

    Why should a bunch of French and Germans decide what policies we can make in our own country?
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    It is quite a scary institution

    I'm not sure if I like it at all.
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    European Union = the only medium through which UK has a say on the internation scene.

    And your queen loves the agricultural common policy because she makes a hell lot of easy money with all the landscape she owns.
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    (Original post by Luceria)
    I'm against it. Most Norwegians are. Hence why Norway is not a member.
    I love norway! I've been. It's ****ing amazing, I wish I bloody lived there but its too friggin expensive! £3 for a bottle of coke?!

    I've Been to Bergen and Malloy.

    Vil gjerne reise til Norge
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    (Original post by karateworm)
    Hi all

    For most of my (politically aware) life I've been a staunch supporter of the EU, but as of late I've started to question how necessary it really is, and whether a "simple" trade agreement would be the answer economically.

    I'd like to see the coherent arguments from both perspectives, so I can take a step closer to working out my view on it. Thanks to all those who post
    It is a very interesting question.

    Europe is very important economically. I doubt a simple trade agreement would be enough to cover the inevitable drop that would follow in trade. Furthermore, as a group, the European Union would be far more powerful than Britian by itself.

    However, one has to look at the structure of the EU. I think there are far too many weak economies in it. At the very core, there should be just Britain, France and Germany and no others.

    The other problems are the inefficient farming subsidies and fishing subsidies that continue to be put in place. The farming subsidies encourage a vast amount of protectionism and inflate the prices of our food.

    A family of four could save hundreds on groceries over the years if we could import food straight from Africa. Instead Farmers in Europe are paid to produce too much and they then dump the food on African Countries and out compete local production.
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    (Original post by Barksy)
    Why should a bunch of French and Germans decide what policies we can make in our own country?
    Same principle as people from Yorkshire having a say to what happens in Cornwall. Just a bigger scale.
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    Trade agreement and single market - good.
    Free movement of citizens in the labour market - fair enough.
    Sharing resources on defence etc - makes sense.

    Monetary union - no.
    Greater political union - no.

    The EU is not an optimal currency zone, the whole drive towards greater political union is to try and make the Eurozone an optimal currency zone, but that's pretty false. I think the EU is in for a real struggle now the chickens are coming home to roost for the Euro.
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    (Original post by Frenchous)
    European Union = the only medium through which UK has a say on the internation scene.

    And you queen loves the agricultural common policy because she makes a hell lot of easy money with all the landscape she owns.
    United Nations, Nato? I'd say that France, Germany and the UK still have more individual clout that the EU does as a whole.

    Always liked the idea of the EU. Never liked the reality though.
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    Tbh the Eu needs to define what it is and what it wants to become. Is it trying to turn Europe into a state or is it just a trade bloc. The single currency would never work unless the EU acted as one single state.

    I think the coming EU crisis(its going to get a lot worse Greece and Ireland are only the begining) will make or break the EU.

    Personally I do not like the Eu because of the way poltcians in brussels make choices and laws for other countries. Its a bit like trying to run a multinational company centrally. It will never work.
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    It's purpose has become murky and recent years. The EU should not be a centralised power but rather an assist to European relations.
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      The more you learn about the EU - the more that you will hate it.

      Free market - great! Almost everything else is about the EU is terrible.

      There is a self-perpetuating bureaucracy in the EU that operates in its own self interest - unaccountably taking more and more political and legal power away from the individual member states and consolidating it into the hands of anonymous politicians from countries with less power than the mayor of London.

      I love Europe, I ****ing love Europeans - the French, Germans, Italians... I am a europhile. BUT I hate EU as an organisation; it is undemocratic, it is unaccountable, a ever increasingly gigantic amount of power is wielded by anonymous bureaucrats who barely anyone has heard of and nobody has elected.

      I wonder how many people on the street could name the EU President...

      Imagine if we had joined the Euro - it is very likely that we would now be facing the same fate as Ireland, Greece or Spain. If I ever give credit to Blair or Brown - it would be for keeping us out of that disgrace. The EU and Euro is like a big experiment, it has just been proven that you can't impose a single currency over many politically, socially and economically distinct countries, so the solution is further political integration, which enables more legal integration, which enables endless more power taken from our remarkably successful island and given to european socialists and euro-nationalists.

      47% would vote for the UK to leave the EU, according to YouGov, only 33% would vote for us to stay part of it.
      (http://today.yougov.co.uk/politics/eu-referendum)


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      Western European countries that are not members of EU:
      Iceland
      Norway
      Switzerland
      Liechtenstein

      I'm tired of people including Norway and Iceland etc in the EU. (we have EEA and EFTA)
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      (Original post by HJV)
      Same principle as people from Yorkshire having a say to what happens in Cornwall. Just a bigger scale.
      Not really. Your wording makes it seem as if Yorkshire wont have to adopt what it has suggested for Cornwall, when this is not the case.

      Not that i'm for the EU.
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      (Original post by Luceria)
      Western European countries that are not members of EU:
      Iceland
      Norway
      Switzerland
      Liechtenstein

      I'm tired of people including Norway and Iceland etc in the EU. (we have EEA)
      Isn't Iceland in the process of joining?

      Also there's Monaco, Andorra and San Marino who aren't members (although they all use the Euro I think).
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      (Original post by Psyk)
      Isn't Iceland in the process of joining?

      Also there's Monaco, Andorra and San Marino who aren't members (although they all use the Euro I think).
      I've read about that, but I hope not!

      Yeah, the microstates.
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      (Original post by Luceria)
      Western European countries that are not members of EU:
      Iceland
      Norway
      Switzerland
      Liechtenstein

      I'm tired of people including Norway and Iceland etc in the EU. (we have EEA)
      Tbh, Switzerland isn't even part of the EEA. They're part of the European Free Trade Area and I think they may have signed the Schengen (? not sure if that's how it's spelt) Agreement.
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      There have been several cases where the ECJ and European Court of Human Rights have provided what are seen as "morally correct” decisions. Not only this, but there have been several equality laws enforced through membership of the EU.

      Were it not for the EU, Parliament would not have enforced laws to allow people to have their rights enforced.

      So while there are downsides to being in the EU, the upsides outweigh them.
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      (Original post by Bourgeois)
      Tbh, Switzerland isn't even part of the EEA. They're part of the European Free Trade Area and I think they may have signed the Schengen (? not sure if that's how it's spelt) Agreement.
      Yes, I know Switzerland isn't. I meant Norway and Iceland (and Liechtenstein).
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        Well you'll find both good and bad points, its upto you to weigh them up against eachother since different people will see the same policy in totally different ways. Some people would count the free movement of people as a great thing about the EU, for others its the number one problem with it.

        For me, the bad outweighs the good. I have a real problem with centralising power, as I think it leads to bad decisions. For example, most agree that CAP is awful, even Lib Dems oppose it. Yet it has existed since the EU began and still makes up more than 40% of the (rising) EU budget. Whilst CAP harms developing nations and European taxpayers (who pay once for the subsidies and then pay again for the higher food costs), it benefits a small and concentrated group of people. Those who benefit will lobby to keep their subsidies in place and those who lose out won't lose out individually by enough to justify lobbying over it. That's why bad policies made by such a centralised institution won't ever be reformed. Concentrated benefits, dispersed costs.

        At a time of spending cuts this should be one of the first places we look to make savings. We currently pay a high membership cost, which is rising by another 2.9% next year. Plus we now need to bailout eurozone countries. Think of the domestic cuts we're facing - why should the EU budget be rising, when over 40% of it goes towards CAP? Is that really where our prioities should lie?

        It is also very bad for democracy, as we've never had a say in the matter. When France and the Netherlands both rejected the new constitution in 2005, they changed the wording a little bit and passed it through as the Lisbon treaty without letting anybody vote on it except for Ireland - who had to vote a second time because they voted the "wrong" way the first time.

        Yes there are benefits, such as the free trade, free movement of people (which I personally count as a benefit) etc. But I'd argue that you can achieve these things without being a part of the EU, without being forced to accept the numerous bad points of membership. At the very least we need to be making a much stronger case for reform, but I don't see that happening even with our so-called "eurosceptic" government.
       
       
       
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